You Smell Gorgeous

[00:00:00] Mickelle: Hi, I’m Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of Peregrine. Expat. Immigrant. Pioneer. None of these were a fit. But Peregrine describes what we are all about perfectly. Those that craft their life story with intention. I’ve spent the last six years in awe of the life changing connections and stories I have experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the life stage that it is.

[00:00:33] Mickelle: Through these interviews, I hope to connect those living internationally more deeply to both the place they are living and with themselves and those around them. We cover everything from international finances and meaning making to global parenting and relationships. To make your time abroad more intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.

[00:00:53] Mickelle: Find us at houseofperegrine. com where you can find more ways to connect with the ethos of Peregrine. I hope you enjoy today’s guest. Let’s get started.

[00:01:03] Mickelle: Franziska Josteit is the creative mastermind and perfumer behind the luxury perfume brand Luisa Jo Wild Perfumery. After more than 12 years in the fragrance industry, where she served in various roles at international flavors and fragrances, or IFF.

[00:01:19] Mickelle: Franziska founded her own luxury fragrance house and it is here to change the paradigm of perfume from smelling like a brand to the beautiful reality that you are the secret ingredient to your signature scent. Her fragrances bring to life your own unique scent that will make everyone in your sphere wonder why you smell so gorgeous.

[00:01:40] Mickelle: I absolutely love the ethos of Luisa Jo and everything Franziska is bringing into the world. For anyone who is new to a place or simply trying to reinvent themselves, fragrance is a very subtle yet powerful way to start again in a new era of your life story. I love Luisa Jo so much that Franziska and I are going to host an event together in November.

[00:02:00] Mickelle: It will be an evening to indulge your senses and learn more about the art of fragrance. Franziska will take us through different ways smell touches our lives and how we feel and people treat us. Think of it like a wine tasting, but for scents. It’ll be an exclusive experience as we only have 15 spots available.

[00:02:19] Mickelle: For tickets and more information, check the show notes or go to houseofperegrine. com slash events to sign up. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode with Franziska. If you do, feel free to share it with a friend. This is the best way to get the word out and support House of Peregrine in our mission to connect people living internationally more deeply with each other, the place they currently call home, and themselves.

[00:02:40] Mickelle: If you are finding this podcast useful, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube under House of Peregrine. That is a zero cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests you’d like me to consider for our podcast, please put those in the comment section on Spotify or Apple or DM us on socials. I read every single comment. If you are not yet following us on social media, we are House of Peregrine on all social media platforms. That’s Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, Twitter. YouTube, and LinkedIn. And in all of those channels, we discuss living abroad and ways to find a deeper connection with yourself, those around you, and the place you currently call home. If you would like to know more about memberships or our events, please find out more at houseofperegrine. com. Okay, on to today’s show.

[00:03:38] Mickelle: Hello, Franziska. And thank you so much for joining us today on the House of Peregrine podcast. I am really, really excited to have you here today.

[00:03:46] Mickelle: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[00:03:48] Mickelle: I want to start out by letting people know what your story is, how, where you grew up and maybe part of your life as an international person. Yes. So I’m German. First of all I grew up in Western Germany and I, yeah, studied business studies in Paris, in London and in Amsterdam. That was quite a coincidence to be honest.

[00:04:14] Mickelle: That was not. Planned up front, but that’s, yeah, life took me there somehow. And I studied business studies and finance, which yeah, it was quite boring to be honest, but that’s why I chose to live in beautiful, exciting cities. In order to compensate, basically, all the best stories start with both.

[00:04:37] Mickelle: I hadn’t, it was an accident and I chose to live. Yeah. But yeah, so you chose to, so you have, you went to school and got degree or degrees in finance. That was kind of your background. Yeah, indeed. The first two years in Paris were quite finance driven. The last year of my bachelor was more like an entrepreneurial course I took.

[00:05:02] Mickelle: And the last year my master was more generic business studies that I’ve done. Yeah. And so were you studying, you were studying abroad most of that time you grew up in Germany. What, what inspired you to move away from where you grew up? When most of my friends stayed in Germany I was always inspired by the language French.

[00:05:25] Mickelle: I really liked it, but I didn’t want to become a teacher. That was my mom’s recommendation, but I didn’t see me there. So my idea was a bit like, okay, maybe I can combine what I really like and what maybe will, yeah, will serve me later. And that was the business study, the Boeing business study But I thought I don’t, I cannot decide yet really where my passion is.

[00:05:50] Mickelle: It needs a bit more time. So I just decided to go for the safe option, but then in a vibrant city and having French at the same time. So I really, I studied in French. So you were following your passion for French, basically. Indeed. That was the initial idea and kind of leave it open to whatever happens so that I have a good.

[00:06:09] Mickelle: background, a good foundation to whatever comes on my, on my journey afterwards, being open and being getting to know other people. That was my idea, mostly like in Paris to open up my horizon, basically. Yeah. Nice. And When did you know that? When did you, I find that people like you and I, there’s a, there’s a moment or a knowing that maybe you want to go away or want to experience something different than maybe the people around you.

[00:06:42] Mickelle: Do you remember? Do you have a moment like that? Or was it always something that was new? Yeah with my parents, I never really traveled a lot they didn’t do exciting trips. It was always nice, but we was we stayed in Europe and so that was fine, but it was not very inspiring in that sense. I didn’t grow up with that.

[00:06:59] Mickelle: But I think I also, I wanted a bit of more excitement. I also, I was really curious, kind of, to get to know people that I don’t know yet. And a bit the unknown. I wanted to explore the unknown and jump into new, be living on my own also with other people. We in the end ended up in a nice really beautiful apartment with three other, we were three girls.

[00:07:26] Mickelle: I didn’t know them before, but it was an old Moulin Rouge apartment. So that was also full of history and. Very exciting. And the other girls, women, they worked both of them in fashion. And so they were also very inspiring to me. We had a lot of party and it was, yeah, really enjoyable years.

[00:07:47] Mickelle: And that’s compensated really for the finance. Studies, basically. So you got to bring in creativity one way or another. And of course there’s creativity in finance for some people, but for you, that’s not what was inspiring you. Yeah, cool. So when did you, so you’re in Paris in, This Moulin Rouge setting, I can imagine you there.

[00:08:12] Mickelle: What happens next? I finished my French degree, which was not well known in Germany. Germany for my last year of bachelor, they did really difficult in terms of moving back to Germany. I asked once a university, but In terms of paperwork, administrative work, it’s quite bureaucratic. So I just sent a message to a public university in London and they directly led me into their third year of bachelor.

[00:08:41] Mickelle: So then my decision was clear. I’m going to London, which was, yeah, also not planned upfront, but it really came. And so I had one year in London. It was also very nice. I was also living in a, in a house full of other people. We were seven people, all different, not just studying, but also people from all different countries and doing other things.

[00:09:05] Mickelle: That was a really nice year. And afterwards I decided to move to Amsterdam for my master degree. Because in Germany, again, it was two years and in Amsterdam, it was in English and one year. So that was clear for me that I needed to go to Amsterdam. Yeah, so it was always a spontaneous decision. But it’s, it really was felt like a good one, a safe one.

[00:09:30] Mickelle: It sounds like you followed your, you’re following your language, what you’re guided by language, and then you’re just being open to what comes. Indeed. Yeah. I think, yeah, I, I love to experience new, experience new things and I’m not afraid to learn new things. To, yeah, the stepping out of the comfort zone.

[00:09:51] Mickelle: Let’s put it like this. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it’s a value for you. Almost. Yeah, indeed. It is. It is like, yeah. I’m also trying to teach my, my kids the same, like really the, when they find something exciting and they’re totally Yeah, totally nervous. I’m like, this is the growth moment. This is where you take most advantage from.

[00:10:14] Mickelle: Take it embrace it kind of. Let’s see if that works out with them as well. But for me, it did. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about this. So I think that there’s two kinds of ways you can take a feeling of being scared, would you say? And so you’re saying embrace it, use it, bottle it. That’s a yes. If you’re scared that that that’s your yes, not a no.

[00:10:39] Mickelle: Yeah. Is that a good way of putting it? Indeed. Yeah. I really feel like exactly those moments where you feel, oh, this is really kind of painful or this is out of the comfort zone. This. where the growth pain is, is coming in and where you learn most about yourself about like afterwards looking back when you stepped out of the situation where you think like, okay, well done or, or not well done.

[00:11:07] Mickelle: But then next time I know now what to do. So no matter the outcome, it’s, it serves you in the end. Yeah. Yeah. Where do you think you learned that? Yeah, that’s a good question. I know my father used to kind of push boundaries a lot. I think it got it from him. Well, first of all, I think my both parents did a great job in terms of giving me a good foundation of, because I think leaving the comfort zone means that you have a strong comfort zone.

[00:11:40] Mickelle: Then you’re much more. Then you can much more easily leave that comfort zone. But also I remember my dad’s really like being little. In a, in a swimming pool. And I remember there was the three meter where you can jump from, you know, the three meter stepping of, I don’t know, how do you call it, but you know what I mean?

[00:12:01] Mickelle: And I remember it was nerve wracking for me. I was so excited, but my dad was like, just do it. And. Yeah, there will, there’s water, so nothing can happen. And he even tried to convince me to jump headfirst. And he, yeah, he really supported me and always kind of pushed the boundaries. And I also remember that my dad’s friend was a hunter.

[00:12:24] Mickelle: For instance, he got rabbits that he was hunting. He gave them to us, dead rabbits. And I remember me and my dad being in the garden, hanging the rabbit on the, on the tree. And then we just took the skin off. And when I think back, I, a lot of kids, I guess, would say like, oh, my disgusting and blah. But I remember when your dad doesn’t say that something is, Maybe discussing if you don’t have even the idea put in your mind, it was totally normal and it was totally okay and beautiful.

[00:12:57] Mickelle: And so I think as a kid, you’re quickly influenced and if somebody guides you into the direction of let’s, Just look for the boundaries, whatever it within your capabilities, what you can do that brings you quite far. My dad growing up was a butcher, so I get it. Funny, funny, indeed. You definitely grow up with a different perspective if you have that experience.

[00:13:21] Mickelle: Yeah. And it is a creative and kind in a way sacred process of, of taking that. animal and then taking it all the way through to a meal. So I really love, I love that I have that experience now. And as a kid, I didn’t know it was strange. Yeah. Or strange for today. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. And now, I know it’s a totally different period we’re living in, but my kids like heard from somebody else that it’s terrible to eat meat.

[00:13:51] Mickelle: And then I’m like, yeah, but is it? Yeah. Yeah. Is it terrible to eat only the one part of the, of the chicken only the breast, you know, and why not then when you eat it, eat the whole thing? So. Yeah. I try to teach them to be a bit reasonable and to think about the entire process. Yeah. Be holistic about it.

[00:14:13] Mickelle: Yeah. That makes total sense. I, I didn’t expect to talk about meat. I’m glad we did. But so I think, so where did the French, the love for French come from? I thought about it as well once because My mother is good in languages, first of all. She was always, I don’t know, also reading books in French and English, even though she kind of never left Europe or Germany.

[00:14:37] Mickelle: But she’s just, she’s talented. But also, I think The teacher make a huge, I remember my first English teacher, she was a fat, frustrated old lady. She was not a nice person. And she, she was also not having fun in her job. She was just frustrated. And I don’t have a good impression of my first years of English teaching.

[00:15:00] Mickelle: And then I remember My first French teacher was a very lovely person where I always as a young girl already thought like one day would love to have a glass of wine with him in front of a chimney, not in a romantic way, but just as like he was He was a nice, kind person and he was inspiring. And I think that made a huge difference.

[00:15:24] Mickelle: Plus the sound, I like the sound. Yeah. It feels good in your, in your mouth and your body. Yeah. What, something to aspire to is I want to have a glass of wine with them in front of a fire. That’s my new goal in life is to be that person. Thanks for giving me a new goal. Yeah. That is very interesting. Okay.

[00:15:43] Mickelle: So then you’re in Amsterdam. What happens in Amsterdam? I have to go a bit back because in Amsterdam, I did my master’s degrees. That meant that I afterwards need to decide the moment where you need to decide what you want to do with your life. But a few years back when I was in Paris still, I was in a train to go back to Germany for weekend.

[00:16:05] Mickelle: And I met a person next to me, a woman, And she, we got into a conversation, which is always nice on the train. And she told me about where she works in a huge fragrance house, perfume house. So I was like, Oh, I didn’t even know a new world opened up kind of their fragrance houses. I didn’t know. Yeah.

[00:16:25] Mickelle: Tell us what that means. Yeah, indeed. I didn’t know myself back then. So basically she told me that all the perfumes that are out there and Douglas, Paris and Sephora. They are not done by Sephora or not done by L’Oreal and Couture and Estée Lauder, but they are done by perfume big corporates. That only specialize on perfumes, on perfume oils, basically.

[00:16:52] Mickelle: And yeah, for me, a new world opened up in the sense that I knew, okay, this is probably once I’m done the way I want to go, I would love to learn about this industry and to really deep dive into not just, Working in a Sephora and selling something that I have no clue about, but really to deep dive into the product itself.

[00:17:13] Mickelle: Nice. So you just knew somehow that this was a place you wanted to spend your time and creativity and your skills. Suddenly this perfume world in process and everything opened up to you in that moment on the train. I love that. Yeah, indeed. I suddenly had a plan in mind like for afterwards once I’m done.

[00:17:34] Mickelle: That was, was really nice because I really had no clue before what I’m doing the study for, but then suddenly it gave me a meaning. Beautiful. So, A moment on a train changed everything. Indeed. The woman doesn’t know about it. I have no clue. I didn’t kept her name or something, but yes, it did. Yeah.

[00:17:56] Mickelle: There’s these, I love these moments that change everything. Okay. So when you graduated, you knew you wanted to work in a perfume house. Do I have that right? Nice. So tell us, tell us what happened next. Yes, I was done with my studies and I decided to, that was planned before to go on a five week trip into South Africa, South America.

[00:18:19] Mickelle: So I went to Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Colombia Miami also on the way back. Five weeks I’ve never done. Big chip like this, but before that, so there was one day in between, I think, really graduation and then leaving to this five weeks holiday. And one day I still had, and I was like, okay, I know how frustrating it is for my surroundings to apply and to look for a job, but I thought, okay, I have a top three in my mind of companies where I would love to work.

[00:18:52] Mickelle: The, the perfume houses, I would send them my CV and nice letter. Who knows what happens that I, I’m not home sitting home waiting for the reply, you know, and that’s exactly what I did. And I think a week later when I had no internet, no connection, I got a reply that IFF, International Flavors and Fragrances, they have a huge office in Hilversum.

[00:19:17] Mickelle: Close to Amsterdam and they would like to have me for an interview. I was like, Oh, this is beautiful. This is, was much quicker than I thought. In the end, they hired me in Germany because I was German. They were desperately looking for somebody to cover a maternity leave in Germany. And so I am, yeah, I moved to Hamburg after my my trip to start my first job in the sales and marketing department, which was a good fit, I guess, back then with my studies.

[00:19:49] Mickelle: I had no clue about perfumery yet. So it’s a good starting, was a good starting position for me to know, get to know the industry. Yeah, and you continued that for how many years? You stayed in the more corporate perfume. Tell us, tell us that world. Give us a, an impression of how that, how the world works, what goes into it, the creative process.

[00:20:13] Mickelle: Yes, I remember. So I worked in a small office, let’s say sales office with like 14 people. very beautiful, all glass all design furniture and metal in the center of the city. So that was always very, you could smell that the margins were good. And well, but what I also had to learn during those, I stayed for two and a half years in that small setting was that there’s a huge corporate behind.

[00:20:45] Mickelle: So those 14 people, We’re a little piece of the puzzle, basically, because in total, the company has its headquarters in New York and yeah, all around the world, there are offices. And the little ones are the sales and marketing offices, but the creative offices where really the perfumes are created, where the research is done.

[00:21:09] Mickelle: Those offices are really in the, in the big cities in the world. And then they have like six, 700 employees there. So it’s, it’s indeed. So what I was. I learned a lot about all those, like, it’s a bit like a network which you first of all, have to understand like a spin web almost like, who is my end customer.

[00:21:33] Mickelle: It’s huge business to business world. There’s a lot of strains that you have to understand first of all, when you’re new into, into this. And these, these people, this web creates the sense of our world, like the sense, sense actually. Changes or follows us throughout our day. If you, if you really think about it, so tell me a little bit about that process and how it changes cross culturally, I think.

[00:22:01] Mickelle: What smells clean in Germany might not smell clean in the U. S. maybe. Yeah, indeed. That was also one of my learning process. Yeah, it’s a good valid point. So first of all, you have to imagine that I also got to know that IFF, the company I’m using already, now knowing every day, like I guess 20 products of, of, of their every household, you have to So it’s international flavors and fragrances.

[00:22:32] Mickelle: So half the company is busy with flavors or the things aroma. So from your bouillon, chicken bouillon to ice cream, to chips, everything that is, has a flavor to it yogurt, whatever dairy products. So the whole fridge is full of IFF basically or competition. And then also fragrance. So the fragrance business is also really not just fine fragrance.

[00:22:55] Mickelle: So perfumes, what you see in Essie Paris, but it’s also from shampoo, body lotion, candles but also. All purpose cleaner, toilet, wind blocks, you know, everything that, that has a smell to it, which people don’t think about it. But it, yeah, it is very important because. Yeah, like you said, there are studies, for instance, that show you can have a detergent.

[00:23:20] Mickelle: I was but I will tell you later, but I became an expert in detergent and fine fabrics. So everything that has to do with washing laundry from a softener as well. And there’s a huge study done, which shows that if you use detergent. Without a smell and with a smell, people perceive the one with a smell as cleaner, cleaning better, as the one without a smell, even though, of course, as you can imagine, the smell doesn’t contribute to the cleanliness of the getting the dirt really out of you, but people perceive it as much cleaner.

[00:23:56] Mickelle: So the smell, Then has a big contribution part. And what you said, interesting enough, cultures are very deeply rooted when it comes to perfumes. And that was my second job within the big corporate business. I moved after two and a half years into consumer insights. Because I was interested in indeed what you said, also, I wanted to get out of this small 14 man office and only being kind of the end person who said something that was created before I wanted to get really closer to the creation part.

[00:24:36] Mickelle: I’m learning much more about the product itself. So I needed to move into one of the creative centers, the bigger centers with six, 700 people. So I moved to Hilversum, back to Amsterdam, basically for me. And I started in the consumer insights department, which is quite analytical, but my business and finance background did help.

[00:24:56] Mickelle: And in this department, I learned a lot about like, If one of the big players, like let’s say Unilever wants to launch a blue fabric softener, a new one, that you can often not have the same smell in Italy like you would have in France or in Germany. They really have totally different requirements because smell is so culturally rooted.

[00:25:21] Mickelle: Hmm. Yeah. How interesting. And so when you’re, when you were thinking about creating these products, were you conjuring it? Memories of childhood, were you bringing in sense from the earth? Like, how would you reference what culturally would be appealing to each region or country? Yeah, there are big studies done.

[00:25:46] Mickelle: You also, I needed to visit a lot of consumers. in their home settings. So I smelled, for instance, a lot of washing machines. It’s in Italy, in France and stuff. Which was interesting. I just want to make sure. So you would just like go into someone’s house and smell their washing machine. Yes. And so we’re using, we’re using, this is the creative process of creating and integrating a smell.

[00:26:08] Mickelle: I love this. So this was part of your work, smelling people’s washing machine. Yeah, because indeed, yeah, because you have to imagine we, we created a detergent, which we thought In the Netherlands where it smells really clean, it smells very commercial, let’s say. I don’t think that anybody can say it doesn’t.

[00:26:28] Mickelle: And then we send it off to consumers. You get the results back and you suddenly hear it smells moldy. It smells bad. Earthy, it smells disgusting and you’re like, what happened, you know, to my detergent? And then you have to go and investigate, like are those washing machines dirty themselves? What is the water quality like?

[00:26:48] Mickelle: Because in the UK, for instance, the water itself smells very different than the water in Germany, for instance, it’s much more moldy it has a really different smell to it already. Wow. So that also influences the outcome. Yeah. In in Turkey, for instance, a lot of people still smoke at home. So we got a lot of comments like that it smells smoky and we were like, smoky?

[00:27:14] Mickelle: But then we figured out, yeah, they often let it dry in their living room. And then they smoke a lot. Yeah, so it becomes part of the melody of the smell. And so you’re looking at the ingredients going, there’s no smoke in what we created, but when it’s in, in, in the environment, it takes on a life of its own.

[00:27:33] Mickelle: And so you had to, to account for that in a way that is really, really interesting. And I can imagine it was a really fun work. Like it seems really creative. Yeah, indeed. And you have to Yeah, work together with the perfumers because you have to tell them the results, what the consumer actually think about their perfumes which is quite shocking sometimes for them.

[00:27:56] Mickelle: So you have to deliver the message and also to guide them afterwards. Okay. We need to make the adaptive perfume. In that direction more, in that direction more for this country, we need more, I don’t know, flowery notes. In that country, we need more fresh citrusy notes. So I really had to understand a lot of the cultural backgrounds in order to adapt every fragrance to the cultural conditions of the country.

[00:28:20] Mickelle: And yeah, indeed, that was, was very exciting. exciting job. Also, we did a lot of focus groups with women, yeah, getting to know what a job well done means for them, being a housewife, how important it is to have a blooming fragrance in the house, because then the neighbors or the husband comments on how beautiful the house smells, how well the job is done.

[00:28:47] Mickelle: And so that is quite, before I just thought I’m using a detergent and that’s it, but for a lot of people it really means was an influence in their confidence and their identity almost. Identity, indeed. Yeah. My kids, when we visit my sister, she uses the same laundry detergent. And so when we come back, they’ll say, this smells like Leslie’s house.

[00:29:12] Mickelle: And that that opened my eyes a lot to this comfort and I’m really sensitive when it comes to smell. So I usually use unscented as much as I can, but she’s the opposite. She’s one of these people that really, Yeah, she’s a three dimensional, her house is a three dimensional experience or a five dimensional experience.

[00:29:30] Mickelle: And so I can imagine that this is almost like a signature scent of your home and your, the people that you’re taking care of. So that’s a really beautiful notion that you got to create for, which is often unseen and unappreciated. Like I, I would have never thought that that much thought went into it. So that’s really beautiful.

[00:29:47] Mickelle: Yeah. It’s a big industry indeed. Yeah. I never knew about it either. Yeah. And so you spent time doing that and then, then what happened? Yeah. So I, I got the task that I had to look for the Christmas gifts of my customers, the customers that we, so we always have to give them of course, at the end of the year, and I could choose the fine fragrances that were kind of the most trendy ones to send to them.

[00:30:15] Mickelle: So I also asked my boyfriend back home, back then, sorry he was working in In a bank very testosterone driven environment, let’s put it like this. And I asked him what I get everything for free. What would you like to have as a perfume? Because he didn’t use any perfume himself. So he got back to me saying, I really don’t want any of this.

[00:30:37] Mickelle: And I was like, why not? We even have, I don’t know, you know, the nicest brands, Tom Ford and Lancôme, whatever you want. But he basically said when I put it down on me, on my skin in the morning, when I just come out of the shower with an empty stomach, I find it always far too dramatic and far too loud.

[00:30:58] Mickelle: This huge perfume cloud, it’s almost sickening for me. And then I go to public transport and I’m so dumb. And then in the morning you have. You can almost not, that’s an invasion of perfumes here and there you have another cloud and you can, you can close your eyes, but your nose, it’s difficult. So he, this is my life.

[00:31:19] Mickelle: I’m always like, how can we not scream in public, but we can wear perfume very loudly. And so I identify with this very much of, it is a bit of an invasion and some would say it’s an expression, which I also agree with, but if you’re sensitive to it, it really can. Disturbed. Yeah. It’s disturbing for him, and he found it far too loud.

[00:31:41] Mickelle: And then he also says, in my environment, in the man’s environment, in the bank, that nobody wears a perfume. It’s not seen as manly. Oh, can I tell you, can I ask you a quick question? Yeah. So when, where I’m from, or at least where I always think of men’s perfume as cologne and women’s perfume as perfume. So is that, is that something that you identify with as well?

[00:32:05] Mickelle: Colognes are basically lower in dosaging loads. They often, so the typical cologne has also a typical perfume structure. Let’s say it has a lot of Niroli, Petit Grain, so all the fresh notes of a cologne, but it also is lower dosed. So I remember my, Grandmother was wearing cologne all the time.

[00:32:29] Mickelle: You smell it at the beginning, but then it’s also quickly gone. Hmm. Yeah. So that’s, that’s the difference. It’s not gendered actually. No, Cologne can also be used for women, indeed. Oh, can also. Yeah, nice. Okay. It’s a unisex. Cologne means that it doesn’t last as long. It’s far less in dosage than a perfume.

[00:32:51] Mickelle: That also means that it is, per definition, a bit more manly, indeed, because it’s a In the past, it changes now a bit, but in the past men did not wear too much perfume. It’s in the few years that it’s got more popular. But traditionally it was first a female product and men, yeah, came with the years. More and more into it, but not so strong.

[00:33:17] Mickelle: Interesting. Just for men. Perfume are always lower than for women. Perfu. I see. So it’s more like you want to have it for a moment instead of for the whole day. Okay. That makes sense. But it’s intense. Also energy wise, maybe it’s more direct and more round. I see it as more straight and more round. Okay.

[00:33:35] Mickelle: Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Thanks for letting me ask all my questions. Okay. So then you’re getting this and you have, yeah, what is the next thing that happens? Indeed. Yeah. So my boyfriend said basically, no, he doesn’t want to have it. And then he also said in the evening when I go for dinner with a client, I would actually like to have a perfume, but not the invasion again.

[00:33:59] Mickelle: I don’t want to also, as a man, you don’t take it with you and I don’t want to reapply because then the dramatic cloud is there again. I don’t appreciate this. But it’s also a shame because in the evening it’s Everything is gone. Everything that was there in the the cloud. Yeah, it’s an evaporation.

[00:34:14] Mickelle: So that’s also gone. Of course, what is evaporated is, is gone. So I decided, okay, I can totally understand your point. And that’s true. I didn’t, didn’t find that on the market. We didn’t have that product that he had in mind. So I created something for him on an oil base. So I put it not in alcohol, which creates the cloud, the evaporation but in an.

[00:34:39] Mickelle: In a base, which is in coconut oil, basically that doesn’t smell without smell, but so it’s a nice, beautiful oil for the skin. That’s, and then I used ingredients that are really more woody and not so invading more pheromones also I put, which is basically the attraction hormones, natural ones from animals used because I was really intrigued by them myself about the smell.

[00:35:07] Mickelle: So, my intention was much, much more to create not just another perfume, but a skin scent enhancer. Something that is not perceived as a perfume also, but really much for that you smell nice, not your perfume smells nice. So I, you smell nice and because it’s amplifying your own, like, body’s scent. Is that right?

[00:35:33] Mickelle: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was my intention. So I mixed something for him because I, back then yeah, that’s important maybe to say, so I moved from consumer insight department into the scent design. I became a scent design manager at IFF which meant that I first of all had to pass a huge test if my nose is good enough for the position.

[00:35:55] Mickelle: Because now you, that meant that I was trained every day for perfume weed for, for the creative side. But it also means, yeah, you can be trained if you. Don’t have the good nose then the training will not help. So I passed that test. It was great. I could go into the creative side of the business, but that also indeed meant that I had a lot of training, sitting together with the perfumers every day, smelling through all the ingredients per layer that they have.

[00:36:26] Mickelle: And yeah, I wrote down so much information, so many nice ingredients is that I mixed my own perfume. I own that perfume, but my own scent basically for my boyfriend at home, gave it to him. And he came back the first day he was going out for lunch with his colleagues. And there was a woman going 10 times up and down and everybody thought she’s crazy or she lost something.

[00:36:50] Mickelle: But then she said, no, it’s you. She, she stopped and said, it’s you. And he, my boyfriend was like, what, what is happening with me? And she was like you smell so gorgeous. And what is it? What, what are you wearing? Yeah. And from then a whole, yeah, his colleagues started to commend. They also wanted to have it.

[00:37:08] Mickelle: It was the snowball system. He was more in the morning on the bike. He got stopped by somebody saying like, Oh, that’s a shame that you’re going left. I’m, I need to go straight. It was so lovely to bike behind you. Yeah, indeed. Quite some interesting stories that came back to me and then I mixed it a few times more often and gave it always away for free for, for friends and family, and my dad was wearing it.

[00:37:41] Mickelle: And he got a lot of comments also from other people. And yeah, I, I have kind of collected feedback from those years when I just gave it away. That is very valuable for me now that it was kind of yeah, product testing without me really noticing it was a smooth process, not intended, but yeah, somehow it grew out of this just testing at home idea.

[00:38:12] Mickelle: And so from there. Where are you now? Now you have this beautiful company and brand. So I just moved into the scent design management role, which was a lot of fun. And I learned again, a tremendous amount of new information and network and everything that was great at the same time. I started my own experimentations at home.

[00:38:40] Mickelle: And yeah, more and more. I got the feedback. from other people, from my own perfume. I could also smell colleagues that were wearing my perfume. I could really smell where they went kind of in the building. I could follow them. I was like Andrea used to be here, I guess. I asked her later, she was here.

[00:39:01] Mickelle: And then I heard also things like yeah, it’s, it’s really like this CEO smell here in the building because The, the managers loved loved it as well because it’s a very classly, classy perfume in a way. So the title was also, yeah, really fun for me. And somehow I, the, the idea grew in my mind that it’s something that I need to explore maybe.

[00:39:28] Mickelle: Later in life, but so I stayed for still quite some years in the corporate job, but there was no need to jump because the corporate was paying well, nice colleagues and. Exciting job to discover, but also I had two kids in the meantime also. So that was also something where I decided to stay in the corporate setting security and yeah, being safe, safe environment.

[00:39:58] Mickelle: And afterwards there was COVID coming, of course, where it was also like, ah, I’m also staying for another year. So in the end, indeed, it was more than 12 years that I stayed. Yeah. Which I don’t regret. It was a great learning super nice experience. But then I went to dinner with my boyfriend and I said to him that I think I need to one day jump because I cannot handle like a full-time job, plus two kids and do everything good.

[00:40:31] Mickelle: Be a nice wife as well, and being myself and all those priorities and starting my own company. With a yeah, and the time investment that is tremendous. It was not possible. So I needed to decide. And I said to myself, really, I think I’m pretty sure I would regret when I’m looking back at my life as a grown up or as a old nanny, I will be surely regretting that I did never try it.

[00:40:59] Mickelle: So then my boyfriend looked at me and he was like, yeah, but then you need to jump. It’s very clear. And what you’re saying is totally make, makes total sense and there’s never a right moment. So of course. I just want to know, were you scared? You say yes, yeah, a bit yes. And he helped you, he helped you see that this was the moment.

[00:41:20] Mickelle: He helped me really to say like, but you are very clear already in your mind about like, that you have to do it and then finding the moment. Yeah. It was, it was not so clear for me, but he made it clear for me that it’s definitely not long anymore. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So that was a really good one. And then the next day I went into the office again, didn’t tell anybody of course, but it really resonated with me that I need, it’s time for me to go and that it’s a matter of days, weeks, month to kind of round up what I have here.

[00:41:58] Mickelle: leave on good terms and yeah, and then say goodbye. So I familiarized myself, first of all, with the thought, can I really let go? How does it feel? How do I feel here? And it felt good. I really, really saw it coming. It feels, it felt really totally making sense and totally At the right direction. So I think a few months later when I I told my boss about it, he also saw it coming.

[00:42:29] Mickelle: I think I told him before, so I was always, I think, looking back at my corporate life, I was always pushing about the boundaries of what you can do next to your job. I also did. I remember Airbnb experiences that I offered that was all approved by my HR officer. I always did yeah, very transparent job, but I was hired then also for huge companies for conferences in other countries in Spain and France with those syrup making, it was Thanks.

[00:43:04] Mickelle: Yeah. Syrups from flowers basically. And we had one materials that I did and that was already stretching the boundaries of my, my boss. He was like, Oh, you’re hired by those, by our competition or by the European flavor association for your private, private side hustle, basically. So I was, he already knew that I’m not the typical, I think corporate person that stays forever.

[00:43:32] Mickelle: Yeah. Have you ever heard the, there’s a book and a notion called don’t quit your day job when you’re kind of developing your skills on the side and you keep your corporate job and sometimes you never leave your corporate job, but you keep it. And so it feels like you were doing that intuitively without knowing.

[00:43:47] Mickelle: You were moving towards some invisible goal, and then it just became apparent that that’s what you’ve been building towards. And so this is when Luisa Jo was born. So it was a long, long journey. Beginning basically in the background. But then I, yeah, started my own company beginning last year officially.

[00:44:09] Mickelle: And so the concept was there, the perfume was there, the, I, what I also did is the whole testing on like allergy testing was done, which took a lot of time and resources so that I knew it’s safe on skin because I knew as well. Of course, when you sell it for one year, even. It needs to be safe on skin, otherwise I’m responsible for allergies and everything.

[00:44:34] Mickelle: Yeah. So that was done in the background. Yeah. You were doing it right. Indeed. I did it completely like following the corporate guidelines, let’s say. Oh, yeah. Nice. But yeah, I learned that, of course, that I don’t want to that I need to do it right. But a very different angle and. Very not corporate.

[00:44:55] Mickelle: Let’s say what I’m doing, the whole concept. So tell me about that. Yeah. Tell me about Luisa Jo. This is a whole new venture and, and also has a different paradigm from the corporate work you were doing. So tell me, introduce us to Luisa Jo. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. First of all, I, I worked so long for those corporate products for corporate perfumes.

[00:45:19] Mickelle: And of course, if you, especially when you come from the testing also job, what I did is when, when you reach, when you want to have a perfume that is liked by thousands of people, it gets more and more average. Of course you need to take off the sharp rounds. You need to make it likable for everybody.

[00:45:38] Mickelle: And with my perfume, I decided intuitively because it was done for my boyfriend only, but I want to go the opposite. I don’t want to do a massive product. I don’t want to be liked by everybody. I want to have those sharp sides to it, let’s say. And it, yeah, I don’t want to please everybody, but I would like to create something that a few people who do understand the concept, they are totally into it and totally excited.

[00:46:11] Mickelle: Addicted and yeah, that for them kind of, because perfume, what I noticed throughout the years when I was still giving it away for free, I got a lot of feedback saying, I get a lot of comments from other people asking what I’m wearing and then I don’t want to reveal what it is because I don’t want others to smell like I do.

[00:46:33] Mickelle: It’s my trademark, you know, it’s like you’re yeah. People want to be recognized by a smell, a certain smell. The perfume, and because it’s such a skin scent enhancer and not just a floral fruity perfume that you can just buy and smells nice, it is very personal in a way. It really makes their trademark or their identity.

[00:46:59] Mickelle: So I really loved that part of it that I noticed people don’t want to share, which is on the one hand, of course, not good for my sales stops whenever I go to have a customer, it’s not the, the, the, the progress or the, the, yeah, it doesn’t snowball system doesn’t really help always, but it is a huge compliment of course, for your product, when your customer says, I don’t want to tell anybody what I’m wearing.

[00:47:28] Mickelle: It’s part of my identity. It’s indeed. This is me. I don’t want anybody to smell like me. And would you say that it’s a different kind of person that kind of wants that customization almost? So it, where, whereas before you were producing things for the masses. In this way, the type of person you’re creating for is a completely different set of desires.

[00:47:53] Mickelle: Indeed. So the position was very high. I decided to, yeah, to have then the whole positioning, very high end, very exclusive. And what you say, indeed, I was The first year, last year, I, I was very curious who will be my customer in the end. Is it really like, because the price is so high, will it then be the people that buy yacht in Monaco?

[00:48:17] Mickelle: I went to the Monaco yacht show for instance. But interesting enough, when I look now at my customer portfolio one thing they have in common is their mindset that they appreciate craftsmanship, I guess, that they appreciate To have something specific that is very important to them, the sense of smell or the perfume that they wear.

[00:48:41] Mickelle: They, in general, they don’t want to put products on their skin that they’re Don’t know about anything they, everything they do, I think they do with a bit of a conscious choice, but it can be, it’s men, women, it’s old, it’s young, it’s rich, but it’s also not rich. So there is no commonality, except I think it’s a mindset thing, much more.

[00:49:05] Mickelle: It’s a value that you put on something. Yeah. And it seems like with this, with what you’re creating, actually the person is the missing ingredient. So it comes together with your body. And so it’s actually, you’re the missing ingredient. You’re the ingredient. You add yourself to this, to this product, and then it becomes what it is.

[00:49:28] Mickelle: Nice. Yeah. Thank you. It only materializes after you put it on. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well put. Yeah. And that’s a really beautiful idea that I think I identify with this and also it’s an authenticity, right? Where you’re, where you are actually just amplifying what you, who you are, instead of putting on a perfume, you’re amplifying your identity.

[00:49:56] Mickelle: own unique scent. And so, and, and with the pheromones, that’s, that’s an attraction thing. Tell us a little bit about that as well. We just want to know if we’ll all be chased down like your boyfriend was on the streets of Amsterdam. Yeah. Or the fly zones are coming behind you. Mosquitoes. No, no, no. Yeah.

[00:50:18] Mickelle: Pheromones. So when you Google pheromone perfumes, there’s a huge market. Out there that I was not aware of back then when I created this, and I don’t believe in this market, I have to say, to be honest, because what is out there on the market are Ferrum perfumes. They don’t even have a smell. They were tested also.

[00:50:38] Mickelle: It doesn’t have an impact. It doesn’t work because I’m pretty sure the reason is the pheromones that those commercial products use are synthetic pheromones. So created in the lab. And I think they even disturb your natural pheromone production. So it surely doesn’t work, but there is of course a huge market in a way that as we get older, our pheromone production decreases.

[00:51:06] Mickelle: Could be a reason why people that’s getting older also find it more difficult to find a partner, for instance. So people would like to buy a perfume. What would be easy if we can just spray on pheromones and then you increase your attractiveness again. So I do understand the market a bit. It just doesn’t help what’s out there.

[00:51:27] Mickelle: But when I used to create the perfume for my boyfriend back then, I just came back from a very inspiring week in Italy with a perfume, natural perfume guru, it was the most expensive holidays I’ve ever done, I think. But it felt like I just turned 30 back then. And I thought it’s an investment in myself.

[00:51:46] Mickelle: I need to know about those. The, the natural perfume guru, what he has to say about aromatherapy as well. And it was a great teaching and he was into natural pheromones and the power of those. And I smelled them and I was. totally intrigued myself. So for me, it was not about the, what they particularly would do to us, but more like I was directly hooked.

[00:52:13] Mickelle: It had an impact on me. So that’s why I used them in the perfumes as well. You have to imagine a bit, I think for the average person, it would smell terrible first sight when you first sniff. But it’s a bit like when you’re an expert in, I don’t know, like, let’s say musician, when you’re a musician, you also like a bit more the weird sounds because all the, the nice thing, what’s already out there when they’re done that it’s okay.

[00:52:40] Mickelle: But if you’re a perfume expert, you also appreciate a bit the notes that are a bit wild and let’s say dirty or a bit different and weird. So I think that was my, my experience back then. So I used those and then. Looking at the feedback that my boyfriend and the other people that was wearing my perfume, what they got, like, for instance, also, can I, I need to, I need to have that perfume.

[00:53:08] Mickelle: I, I would kill for it. I was like, I would kill for it for perfume. Like, why would you do that? So strong things that I heard and brought back that I thought maybe there is something happening with the perfumes, with the pheromones. And I cannot. Put my fingers exactly on it. There’s no research really about it.

[00:53:32] Mickelle: Showing showing that it does work, but I’m pretty sure because it’s natural what I use other than what’s on the market. I do think that it could well be that there’s something happening. Yeah. Nice. And so with your, your perfume house, do you call it a perfume house or What can we do? We can buy your signature fragrance.

[00:53:56] Mickelle: Is that right? Anyone? Tell us a little about your offering at the moment. I’m ready to, I want to smell, I want to be the missing ingredient already. How does that work? What are you working on? And what do you, how can people get involved with this? Yeah. Good question. So, because I don’t want to choose the direct and let’s say most obvious way to, to sell and to get out there, which then would be a, yeah, standard positioning again.

[00:54:27] Mickelle: I don’t want to go into retail. So you don’t find me at Sephora or any of those shops. I much rather would like to keep a personal touch to it, tell the stories to people try it on the skin and a perfume is fine. It’s really, yeah, it’s an unvisible product. So online I find it very difficult. You need to try it on your skin to see if you’re hooked.

[00:54:50] Mickelle: You need to see if it also, it’s also not a product that I would say you spontaneously buy. I think what works most is if I put it on somebody’s skin. And the day after, you know, then they call me and say like, oh, it really, it was, I, I felt lingered the entire day. And so that’s my approach. I meet, some people can reach me through my website.

[00:55:17] Mickelle: They can send me a message saying that they’re interested to meet up. I always have meet updates in Amsterdam. But I do, but I can also meet up somewhere else and then I show to them my three perfumes. The, the, there are three perfumes. So I initially created one for my ex boyfriend, but I saw from there, like I told you, my first customer, for instance.

[00:55:38] Mickelle: I went to his office and there were 10 colleagues with him and we all unpacked together kind of my my perfume and three colleagues already said like, Oh, I also want to have that. And his eyes were like, Oh, no, no, this is for me only. I want to have it for me. So I went back into my atelier creating two more perfumes that are having the same signature.

[00:56:02] Mickelle: I wanted to say. To, to what I built or what I created. And then I have two twists, one a bit more feminine with a lipstick accord. And one more masculine, which can also really work fabulous, fabulous on a feminine skin, but at wild tobacco. So it has the tobacco leaves on there. So those three perfumes, indeed we can meet up for coffee, perfume coffee, and then I can show you those three perfumes.

[00:56:32] Mickelle: You can try them on. You don’t have to buy them directly, but really try them. And then people get back to me. What I also offer is for companies, that’s a different thing bespoke perfumes. So tailor made perfumes because I also see that companies. Would like to have this identity, scented, branded identity with smell, because there’s a lot of research that shows that, I don’t know, retail works much better when you have a nice scent in the room, for instance.

[00:57:01] Mickelle: Yeah. I did for instance, projects for beauty care companies that wanted to have a specific smell that is not off the shelf from the huge companies, but it was more specific fragrances that they had in mind. It’s like a logo. It’s like a logo, only a scent that’s beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. We need it now. We need a house of Peregrine scent.

[00:57:21] Mickelle: There’s just, so I really, what I hear you saying and what I hear you bringing attention to is there’s more dimensions to our identity. We, we tend to focus on our visual identity or our design. But. But what you’ve taught me today is that smell really is an immense part of our cultural experience, our identity, but also how we, are in the world.

[00:57:49] Mickelle: And so if you’re someone like me who doesn’t really like to put things on, like it makes me feel like I’m, like, I don’t wear brands. I don’t wear things like this, but I really love the authentic, authentic notion of bringing myself to something. I feel like that’s, this is a really like beautiful notion.

[00:58:09] Mickelle: And so I thank you so much for joining us today. And I appreciate you taking the time of explaining this to us, and I look forward to, yeah, I have a feeling we’ll be meeting for a perfume coffee in Amsterdam soon. Thank you. How can people reach you if they want to? What’s the best way for them to get in contact with you?

[00:58:33] Mickelle: Yes, I guess through my website would be the first first step to take this contact form. But also I’m active on LinkedIn under my name, Franziska Josteit and also a bit active on Instagram, Luisa Jo, Wild Perfumery. Okay. Yes. You will put the, the, I’ll put everything below. That’s great. But yeah, indeed, what you just said as well in people should not forget if you are working in a corporate environment, or if you’re an entrepreneur, you are a personal brand always.

[00:59:09] Mickelle: And as a personal brand, you showcase yourself each time you pitch yourself each time when you meet somebody, and it’s not just about the first impression to, to. Get somewhere, but to stick to somebody’s mind and perfume is a perfect tool to stick to somebody’s mind because perfume is directly linked to our limbic system where all the emotions are.

[00:59:31] Mickelle: So if you can stick to somebody’s mind through perfume, that’s very beautiful. And very powerful. Yeah. Thank you so much. I’ve had so much fun talking to you. And I hope everyone will reach out and consider this part of their personal brand. Thank you. I’m sure we’ll see you again, but thanks for joining us today on the House of Peregrine podcast.

[00:59:53] Mickelle: Have an incredible rest of your day. Thank you so much for asking. Okay. That’s it for today. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on living internationally, join us at HouseofPeregrine. com to find out how you can connect with our community. Let’s craft our life story with intention together.