House Of Peregrine (01:03)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast. Today we're tackling a topic that's deeply personal and often incredibly complex, international divorce. My guest today, Magali Van Maanen, is a seasoned divorce lawyer and mediator at DeBorder Lawyers in Amsterdam. With nearly two decades of experience, she specializes in everything from custody and alimony to international family law. Having grown up partially abroad,

Magali brings a unique perspective to expat and cross-border cases, helping families and couples navigate separation and divorce with clarity, fairness, and ease.

House Of Peregrine (01:40)
Welcome, Magali. I am so happy to have you on today.

Magali Van Maanen (01:44)
Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm looking forward.

House Of Peregrine (01:47)
I have to say, when we were just speaking about this earlier, but when I told a few of my friends that have actually used you as their lawyer, the thing that they said is, my God, I love her. That is not, that is a, as a lawyer, I'm not sure, from the US, I'm not sure I've ever heard that sentiment. It's always, really good, they're amazing at their job, but like also, my God, I love her. That's a real true testament to your character. So I just wanted to.

Magali Van Maanen (01:57)
wow.

Well, thank you very

much.

House Of Peregrine (02:12)
I wanted

to pass that along to you. So we're talking about today divorce and when living internationally or when a family is abroad. so I want to start out by telling everyone a little bit about you, about your background and how you grew up and your connection to international life.

Magali Van Maanen (02:29)
Yeah, well I was born in France, so that's quite European still. But my parents were living there as expats. They both grew up abroad partially as well, at least my mother did. And my father comes from a long line of international people as well. So I think it's something that's always been in my blood.

We moved back to Holland actually when I was just born, but afterward after a couple of years moved to Australia, which was my most exotic foreign experience I must say. But it did help tremendously because that experience of course raised the bilingual upbringing I had, which has helped me in future life a lot. My parents...

did bring me and my sister back to Holland by the time we went to secondary school because they did feel that the level of education and the opportunity that we could have as students here in the Netherlands was something they wanted to offer us. If we had said, but we want to go abroad, that would have been fine as well. But I'm actually very glad that we were able to also experience life with family close to us here in the Netherlands.

House Of Peregrine (03:38)
That's amazing. And so you spent the beginning most of your childhood abroad, it sounds like.

Magali Van Maanen (03:43)
Yes, yeah, yeah. I

moved back when I was 10 or 11 or something, yeah.

House Of Peregrine (03:47)
Amazing. And so I have a feeling that informs your passion for this subject because you are with some with people in I mean, there's births, there's deaths and then divorce. Like there's these moments in life that are so pivotal and so big. And you're there with people during during that time. That being said, when you're living internationally, it has an even bigger potentially implications for your life.

the country you live in, your jobs, all these things are much more complex. And so do you think that that having that extra compassion for how you grew up informs your work today?

Magali Van Maanen (04:26)
Yes, think it actually does, definitely does. Because the fact that someone chooses family law as a specialist subject, I mean, I could have also done employment law, I could have also done something else. But then I still would have been attracted to the international aspects and to the international community because of that experience I've had and

Also because I think it's very interesting to learn about cultural differences. The other day I was speaking to a client who was quite amazed that in the Netherlands we have a no fault divorce system. The other spouse had cheated and that was of course extremely emotional. And in Holland we don't do anything about that and I do understand why

someone with a different cultural background would find that very difficult to accept. And so I see it as my job to explain and manage expectations in that sense.

House Of Peregrine (05:21)
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. it's so, divorce is cultural. Like it is divorce, marriage, everything is cultural. And so why would this be an exception? That's really true. Part of my story is a lot, I came to the Netherlands when a lot, I think there's, in my life, I've been married for almost 22 years. There's these seasons where people kind of, I go through these rashes of divorce. And it's usually like a few years in, after you have a baby,

Magali Van Maanen (05:26)
Absolutely.

House Of Peregrine (05:47)
And then like when you move abroad turns out there's another inflection point where people would just really it's a make-or-break moment And so I went through a rash of a lot of my friends getting divorced while they're living abroad while they're both outside of their country and I began to see Just how much I didn't know about this and actually divorce is something you don't know at all until you go through it in your own country even you think you might know but this was a whole other level and so

I began really, like, even though I wasn't going through divorce myself, when your friend goes through a divorce, you kind of go through something yourself. And so I really wanted to bring you on because you became the name I was hearing all the time for people who understand. The other part of me is that I did a TED Talk about women and how the economic system, if they do care work, actually it doesn't involve them at all.

And so these two things are, very passionate about them because not always is the woman the one that gets, maybe needs more protection or something in a divorce. when you're an international couple, there's often one, there's just a lot of complexity, a lot of value and a lot of ways to really.

Magali Van Maanen (06:39)
No.

House Of Peregrine (06:57)
Yeah, there's just a lot of moving parts. So I'm so glad that you're around for us to ask questions. So just want to dive in. So yeah, so I'm American. I have a lot of American friends that there's vast differences in the system. But what I want you to do is talk us through why someone, if they think they might be getting a divorce, consult you before they make the final decision.

Magali Van Maanen (07:03)
Please do.

Well, I think it's very important to know what your financial position will be after a divorce, before making the decision to actually break up the marriage. And I'm not saying don't break up the marriage because your personal happiness is of course extremely important. Also, if there are children involved, if parents are unhappy, usually that reflects on the children as well. I'm more saying...

think of the financial consequences because it's important to know what your life will look like after the divorce and make a plan for that. It's often one of my first questions to a new client. How do you see your life in three years time, more or less? Another reason why it's important to come and see me first is because we have to really look at if in case of a divorce,

you have to divide your property, which law will we apply? You're in Holland now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Dutch law is applicable to your marital property regime. It will most likely be applicable to spousal support, to child support, but not to the division of property. And well, to make it very more or less a strategic advice.

It could be that it's still possible to petition for a divorce in the country where you're from. And it could be that that country applies different laws to matrimonial property regimes, which could either be beneficial or less beneficial. So it's really important to look into the consequences of the divorce before actually taking the step.

House Of Peregrine (08:55)
Yeah. And so the way I like to look at it, and this is how I look at a lot of things now as a kind of midlife person, but what I think was kind of part of mine and maybe a lot of people's idea before is when you go see the lawyer, that's when it's over. And instead, we want to tell people maybe if you think this might be a possibility, know what you're in for. Not to make the decision, but

Magali Van Maanen (09:18)
Yeah, exactly. That's it.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (09:21)
but to

make an informed decision. As an international person, you're navigating multiple jurisdictions. You're navigating, especially if you have children, multiple countries that have a say over these children. And so it's just like buying a car or buying a house or anything else. You might learn a little bit about it first before you make a final decision. And so that's what I would like to, I think that you actually,

Magali Van Maanen (09:42)
Absolutely.

House Of Peregrine (09:46)
were the one that gave me that was like, when we did our call before, was like, you wouldn't do a lot of big decisions without knowing the consequences, why would you do this? And so it's not like, I mean, you often told me that you have people come to you for a consultation that end up not getting divorced.

Magali Van Maanen (10:00)
that happens, yes, absolutely. Because it's also the case that I ask them, you know, are you sure? Is there still a chance that you can get back together? Because I'm not in this to get people to divorce. I'm in this for people who actually have made the decision to divorce and there's no way back to help them come to a good future.

And then mainly financially, but especially for the children. Those are always the main priority. But if people are not 100 % sure, I always send them to a therapist. And whether they do that by themselves or together, I don't care. But if people come back together, yeah, perfect. I really hope that.

House Of Peregrine (10:42)
Yeah.

Yep. And so I feel the same way. It's like sometimes it's inevitable. It should always be on the table. But it doesn't mean you're getting divorced if they come talk to you for a consultation. Yeah.

Magali Van Maanen (10:51)
No,

no, and I also increasingly have people who come for a consultation who say, look, I just want to know where I stand. I'm not thinking of a divorce. It's everything's going fine. I just want to know if my finances are in order and whether I should be thinking of a post-nuptial agreement or yeah, what are my rights? What are my obligations?

House Of Peregrine (11:14)
This is such an amazing point. And I think an inflection point is when you get married, then you have kids. But then again, I really want people to think about doing an agreement for when they change countries, about how value is divided. Because often, and I don't know if you see this, I see this just in my peer group and my friends, is that one partner often takes over the household when they didn't before, when they move abroad. And so that value has to be accounted for.

Magali Van Maanen (11:25)
Yes.

House Of Peregrine (11:42)
And then you start changing rapidly, both of you, because you're in a new country, a new language, a new house, and both of you are changing separately. And then a lot of times that puts a lot of stress on a relationship. And then you find yourself in a totally different financial place than you thought you were, maybe even two years ago. And so do you ever, like, I wish there was a contract you could go over. That's what my TED talk was about, to be like, have a contract.

assigns value in your relationship. Do you ever help people make a prenuptial agreement that includes value all the way through?

Magali Van Maanen (12:16)
Well, yes and no. I do advise people on making a prenup like that. And I always also say include the children. If you're moving abroad, make provisions for are we coming back? What are the conditions for coming back? Because often enough people get stuck in a country abroad with their children and they can't come back because

either the other parent or the court doesn't agree. The only thing is I can't make the pre-nup myself because in the Netherlands, pre-nupcial agreements have to be made by notaries. So I can help parties make an agreement amongst themselves, but the question is whether an agreement amongst themselves will always be upheld in a country abroad. So usually I say make a notarial pre or post-nupcial agreement.

because then we can be sure that it's a valid and legally binding document.

House Of Peregrine (13:11)
That's amazing. That's amazing advice. Okay. Well, that's such good questions, not even what I was talking about today, but I have such a passion for discussing value whenever there's a big change because it really does make a huge difference in making relationship decisions less excruciating when and if the terms change. Okay. So A lot of people are from either they're living in a different country, let's say

because we're both in the Netherlands. Both people live in the Netherlands, but they're from a different passport country. They've come with no agreement, and they come, one of them, usually you represent one part of the couple, right? Not both.

Magali Van Maanen (13:45)
It depends, I do both. If people come to me for advice and help as a lawyer, then I of course have just that one client. Often people will also come and ask me to be a mediator. And then it's usually a divorce mediation where we settle all the consequences of the divorce at the table.

sign it and the divorce is then just an administrative procedure. I can't do both at the same time or in the same case. I'm either a mediator or a one-sided lawyer. But if someone reaches out to me, my first question is always, do you want me to be your lawyer or are you looking for mediation?

House Of Peregrine (14:22)
That's amazing. Okay. So that's really good for people to know that that's an option. And I think that's very specific also to this market. It probably also works in other countries. But mediation is the first choice usually. But where do you see when international couples come to you or when someone comes to you, say someone from the US or someone from

anywhere, anywhere else that's not here, they come to you. What are the kind of the questions that you want them to be thinking about?

Magali Van Maanen (14:47)
Mainly I want them to think about, well as I said before, what do you want your life to look like in three years time? So how do you see the division for the kids? Because usually expats will have children. If not, I mean, okay fine. But usually there are children involved and then there's always a question, do you intend to stay here or do you intend to go back to your home country?

What does your spouse think about that? And if you're going to live in separate countries, how do you plan on doing the division of care for the children? Important question is also, how do you see your own responsibility in earning an income? Is it possible to earn your own income or are you dependent on your spouse in that sense?

House Of Peregrine (15:32)
Yeah, if they have a visa

or something that they're reliant and they're unable. Yep.

Magali Van Maanen (15:34)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's an important question. For me, in a first meeting, yes, we definitely talk about assets and how they're going to be divided and what your net worth is, et cetera. But in the Netherlands, usually that's quite a, I'd almost say a simple outcome because we look at the applicable law and we say, okay,

Does everything have to be divided 50-50 or is there a different division of assets? So for me that isn't even the most important point. The most important point is how are you going to sustain yourself in the long run.

House Of Peregrine (16:08)
Yep. Yeah. And there's often surprising things that come out of that. So for instance, something that I learned is even if you're both from outside of the Netherlands and you have children here, until you have an agreement, neither those kids are staying here in the Netherlands. That is such a surprising and often it catches people off guard if they're not from here. The kids are here until you guys work it out. And I find

Magali Van Maanen (16:24)
Yes. Yep.

Absolutely.

House Of Peregrine (16:36)
I find that both terrifying and comforting, right, as someone who's not from here and my partner's not from here, you always think, I can go back. No, that's not how it works.

Magali Van Maanen (16:44)
No, you can't. No,

and to be honest, for me, as a lawyer, it's extremely frustrating as well. I do think there's a difference between...

let's say mixed marriages where you're married to a Dutchman or a Dutch woman and decided to live here because it's one of your home countries and the, what I call them real expats, the people who came here just for two, three, four, maybe five years. And especially for that second group, for me it's extremely frustrating to have to tell them, I'm sorry, you can't go back, even though it was never your intention to stay here in the long run.

We can petition the court for substitute permission to be able to go back to your home country. But often that petition is denied because the courts are afraid that the bond between the children and the left behind parents will be damaged because of the big distance between the parents and the children. And that means that someone who doesn't want to live here has to live here.

House Of Peregrine (17:42)
Yeah. Or, I mean, they can technically leave, their children just can't. Yeah. And so that's, I was shocked when I learned this through a friend who was getting divorced. They were both American and their children were, they're here. could, neither one of them could leave it unless they wanted to leave the children. It's also oddly comforting, honestly, because then this child first mentality, I have three children myself, but like,

It's both terrifying and comforting, I have to say, as someone. Because it really forces you to make that decision as a couple. Like, it's the state against, you know, it kind of gives you a bad guy.

Magali Van Maanen (18:18)
Yeah. Yep, which is true. Yep.

House Of Peregrine (18:19)
So that's interesting.

So when the other thing that I've seen happen is there is some things that as an international, you aren't always able to fall back on the Dutch case law or Dutch things. So sometimes it does default to your home country. The jurisdiction of things like maybe stocks or inheritance. These things don't always fall under what you think would be 50-50.

or things like this that would, if it's two people who live in this country, there's a set of rules that are pretty cut and dry. But in international divisions of property and assets, sometimes there's complication. Do I have that correct?

Magali Van Maanen (19:00)
Yes, that is correct and especially if we're in a divorce case where the property laws of your home country could determine how you have to divide your property and let's say for instance as an example the UK, they have an equity division, they say that means we're not necessarily going to divide everything 50-50 but we're going to look at what is fair and reasonable.

And in most cases, that means a lump sum payment for both equity and...

future income. So just a one-off payment and then it's done. The clean break principle. Whereas in Holland we say we're going to divide the property 50-50, because that was until today what you built up together, and going forward we're going to divide future income by way of spousal support. And if those two coincide, that could make things quite difficult because then we're looking at the clean break from the UK perspective.

plus spousal support going forward. that's a good question, whether that's fair or not.

House Of Peregrine (19:58)
Yeah. And so is it wise, because it could be that one partner could really benefit from this combination and the other really doesn't. And so then that's where you really, there might be a massive disagreement that has to go to court. And that in a Dutch court would be just argued by lawyers at this point. Is that right? Yep. And then previous case law and all this stuff. And so you're kind of at the mercy of that, which is again, where I'm from pretty normal.

Magali Van Maanen (20:18)
By your lawyers, yep, that's right, yep.

House Of Peregrine (20:27)
for normal divorces. So is it wise maybe to research or maybe talk to a lawyer in each country, your home country and here to determine where you want to file?

Magali Van Maanen (20:35)
Yes,

yes and that's usually my advice to international clients to reach out to a lawyer in your home country to find out first of all whether you can get divorced in that country and what the consequences would be of that divorce over there so that we can put that advice and my advice next to each other and see what is not only most beneficial but also most practical and logical.

Often we say, do the divorce here because the children are here, Alimony is here, and the Division of Assets, well, we can obtain advice on how to do that from that other country, and then we can settle everything over here. Also, because compared to some other countries, the Dutch lawyers are less expensive.

Yes, we still charge a lot, I know, I'm sorry. But I know that in some other countries the fees are much, higher.

House Of Peregrine (21:25)
Hmm. So it could be a logical choice that way. That's interesting. But I would say that because this is what happens. This is what in my circles. Again, there was a rash of divorces after like three years of living here. So I feel like I got a front row seat. The advice was, no, Dutch, you know, it's better to get divorced here. It's better to get divorced here than say in the US or somewhere. It's fair. Everything's 50 50. That was not always true. And so that

Magali Van Maanen (21:38)
Hmm.

House Of Peregrine (21:51)
Talking to someone like you could be massively beneficial if you're thinking about this or if you're planning to go through with it simply because going to a mediator isn't always the best choice, even though it's the least expensive choice. It's a lot of things, especially for local people who live here and they're both Dutch. But I think it's well worth the time with you to determine if there's any things that you need to be thinking about.

Yeah.

Magali Van Maanen (22:22)
Yes, I agree. And then I will advise to go to a mediator to finalize the divorce, to make the settlement and the negotiations. And I can be there in the background to help and to check everything. But it's certainly worthwhile to obtain some advice before you actually go into the mediation.

House Of Peregrine (22:42)
Yeah, that's such good advice. Because when you're in the middle of it, and this is the next part I want to ask you about, I feel like people are not in their right mind. This all sounds very logical. I'm sure it's all very logical. But when you're in the middle of it, having someone who knows the law and knows what's going on, this is potentially one of the most traumatic things that people go through. And you're abroad and you're in another country. Tell me what that often looks like. How do you support your

clients through that because you really can't see things clearly sometimes.

Magali Van Maanen (23:12)
No, it's completely true and sometimes I get questions from clients that even someone who isn't versed in the law could answer because it's just common sense. But because you're in this very emotional and not only unclear but also let's say you don't know what the future is going to bring, it's all unknown.

House Of Peregrine (23:32)
Yep.

Magali Van Maanen (23:33)
tend to think, my gosh, I don't want to make a mistake, or should I do this or should I do that, or I need to buy something, am I allowed to buy something? it's, you know, they're not difficult questions, but people just tend not to see the bigger picture anymore because they're in the middle of a conflict. And they're afraid to take the wrong decision or take the wrong step or do something that's detrimental to their legal position.

House Of Peregrine (23:48)
Yep. Yep.

Yep.

fears you see people having?

Magali Van Maanen (24:00)
Well, that they will do something, as I said, that's detrimental to their legal position. Mainly, what I often see is that physically staying in the same house becomes very contentious. And people say, maybe I should just leave the house, move elsewhere. But that can have an effect on your chances of being able to move back to the house.

So often I say okay, but is there a different option if you if you Need to stay in the house or if you want to keep the house But your ex wants to keep the house as well. They're moving out is often not the best option So and also with children If you're looking for a certain division of care for the children that people are afraid to make decisions or do things that will

Yeah, give the other person an advantage.

House Of Peregrine (24:48)
Right. And so there's a fear, I know the number one fear for a lot of my friends was they would lose their kids or be seen as a bad mom. And so the court would look down on them and take their kids or give them less time with them or something. Yeah. And then for men, I think it's similar. they don't want, you know, if it's a traditional setup, they don't want to lose more money. They're afraid of losing more money. Of course, they're also often afraid of losing their children, I'm sure. But that's not a reality. That's not.

Magali Van Maanen (24:54)
Yep. Yeah.

I see that a lot,

Hmm.

House Of Peregrine (25:14)
Unless there's abuse, it really isn't. I just want to set the record straight. There's many cases you can lose your kids, but just not being with them as often is not one of them under Dutch law. that? Yeah.

Magali Van Maanen (25:25)
No, exactly, exactly.

And that is indeed a misunderstanding that I hear a lot. I think that also has to do with the fact that child protection services are often called into a case. If there was a fight in the house and the police are called, then they call CPS. And often people get scared because of what they say.

But that's, it's completely unnecessary.

House Of Peregrine (25:52)
Yeah, okay. So in general, they want your kids to be with you if that's healthy for them. Yeah. And then what other fears financially do people generally have?

Magali Van Maanen (26:01)
Mostly it has to do with having enough income, having enough assets to be able to not only live comfortably, but of course it's very difficult to find suitable housing these days.

House Of Peregrine (26:15)
Mm-hmm.

Magali Van Maanen (26:16)
well, to find a house, number one, you know, to find something, but also something that is actually affordable. And especially if we're talking about parents with a different level of income and where they used to be quite a comfortable house where the children had their own bedrooms. And suddenly one of the spouses, usually the woman, has to live elsewhere and considering her income,

has to move to a two-bedroom apartment, that's difficult. it's especially because we're often looking at a more or less 50-50 division of care, maybe 60-40 or a little bit more, a little bit less. You do need to have a suitable place and preferably close to each other so that the children can move comfortably from one parent to the other.

House Of Peregrine (26:50)
Yep.

Magali Van Maanen (27:10)
and can go to school quite easily from both parents. And that's a major concern.

House Of Peregrine (27:14)
Yep. That's a major concern.

Yeah, it's a major concern. Is there anything people can do their situation? ask for more. Assuming you don't have a prenuptial agreement that considers this ahead of time, is there anything you can advise people to do to increase their chances of being able to support themselves better?

Magali Van Maanen (27:30)
Hmm.

Yeah, well, it also depends on the age of the children, of course. But at least do your best to make a step into the working world. And even if it's only voluntary work, but at least try to find something for yourself that you can at least in time find a job.

It could also be following a course, education, because these days spoutal support, if you're eligible, will only last for five years. So after that five years, you're going to have to find work for yourself anyway. So you might as well start doing that now.

House Of Peregrine (28:07)
Mm.

Right. Okay, so just start standing on your own feet financially as soon as you can. And that doesn't hurt your chances because there's a lot of times where if you don't have income in other countries that you get more spousal support than if you did before. That's not the case in the Netherlands. Is that what I'm hearing?

Magali Van Maanen (28:30)
Yes, well no, yes and no. When we look at spousal support, there's two main subjects. The first is need. What do you need? Which budget do you need every month to sustain yourself? And the other is capacity to pay. So the person who has to pay spousal support, how much income they have, which is available to pay spousal support.

So that need, the budget that you need is determined by wealth during the marriage, what were you accustomed to spending during the marriage, and whatever you earn yourself is subtracted. And the other spouse is asked to fill in the gap. And what we usually see is that capacity to pay by no means reaches the amount of the gap of the need. So usually someone will have the opportunity to earn an own income.

without losing spousals.

House Of Peregrine (29:24)
Okay. And do you, so this, I'm going to change direction. So thank you for all this advice, by the way. I feel like this is going to help a lot of people. If you're getting a divorce from the Netherlands, listen to this. This is like a lot of great advice. I want to ask, do you, if you were to move abroad in Europe with all your knowledge, would you come on someone else's visa as a divorce lawyer? Do you think that's a wise move, even in the strongest of marriages?

Magali Van Maanen (29:30)
Yeah.

Well, the lawyer's answer is always, depends. It depends. It depends it depends. Exactly, no. So for me, to be honest, it's okay to go initially on the spouse's visa because you need to be able to build up a life over there.

House Of Peregrine (29:50)
Of course, we're gonna put a big old disclaimer on this episode. isn't, yeah, not legal advice. This, that's, yeah.

Magali Van Maanen (30:10)
in the new country, you need to at least have the feeling that you're settled for the first couple of years. But my advice would be at least either at the beginning or at some point to get information on how to get your own visa because as you said yourself, usually marriages tend to start to crack after the first couple of years, maybe two or three years.

I know that here in the Netherlands there are opportunities to get a visa to be able to stay with your children, your minor children, but I don't know if that's the case in other countries. And of course it would make life increasingly difficult if the visa is the reason you have to leave the country and that you can't be with your children.

House Of Peregrine (30:51)
Yep. Or you can't work. There's some visas where you can't work. Yeah. I find that incredibly insane that that's the case. So, but what I want to ask is, there anything we can do? What are the? Why do you think these as a divorce lawyer, what do you see in international couples that really gets in there and starts dividing people? If you had to name a few things.

Magali Van Maanen (30:53)
or you

Usually what I see in practice, people tend to have different ideas on what the relocation was going to bring and what it has actually brought. you know, some people see it as an adventure and, it's going to be wonderful, but it's hard. It really, you have to make an effort to fit into

either the expat society or the Dutch, in this case, Dutch society. And that's really difficult. And if it was just one spouse who is the expat who is working, then you often see that that person builds a life for themselves because he or she has social contacts through work, has something to do every day because of work.

in free time, does some sports, generally lives more or less the same life as that they had in their home country, except it's in a new country. And the trailing spouse is left with making sure the family can get into society and they are generally challenged with

all the aspects of living in a new country. And mostly then if that leads to an unhappy spouse and it's brought up, no, but everything is fantastic over here and I never want to leave. So there's no listening to the arguments of the other person. So the trailing spouse has to understand that the working spouse has a new life.

But the working spouse has to understand that for the trailing spouse it's really difficult and that they need help.

House Of Peregrine (32:50)
Yeah. And they're working on your combined life while you're working on your own advancement. And that's a massive, I think it's under sold how incredibly difficult that can be and how that really can break up a marriage. And how rapidly you're both having completely different lives and you're growing in different ways.

Magali Van Maanen (32:55)
Yes, exactly.

Yeah, absolutely.

House Of Peregrine (33:15)
And that you can either grow together or you can grow apart. But it is a massive moment. I would say almost as big as having children is moving to a country with someone because it's such a time of rapid growth. you have to be mindful about that.

Magali Van Maanen (33:31)
Yes, and of course you're more dependent on each other rather than on family, friends, community. You're really, you have to be a close-knit unit for it to be able to be a success.

House Of Peregrine (33:45)
Yep, it's so true. And so do you think that's the primary reason we see such a higher incidence of divorce among international couples? Is that main nugget?

Magali Van Maanen (33:55)
Yes, especially because when you're living abroad, think certain personal characteristics will rise or come.

They will come up more than if you're in your normal habitat with your normal friends and family where everything is running smoothly. And when you're over here, some things might come up that you never knew about.

House Of Peregrine (34:07)
Mmm.

Yes, it's so true. It's so You have different opportunities and also parts of your personality do become more exaggerated or uncovered. It's a time of rapid personal growth. And so also you could have good things that come out that you didn't know. And then that can lead you to grow more than your partner, perhaps.

Magali Van Maanen (34:36)
True, and I think also immersing yourself in a new culture can be very interesting and can also maybe bring some new things to your, also your joint life.

House Of Peregrine (34:48)
Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay, I want to ask you this other question. So when we spoke before in the pre-interview, you told me, and you mentioned it briefly at the beginning of our interview, but you told me when someone comes in that you asked this question. So I want you to say it again slowly. It is, what do want your life to look like in? just pretend like I'm coming to you, you're asking that first question so people can ask it to themselves if they're thinking,

that they may want to end their marriage, ask me that question slowly like you would a client.

Magali Van Maanen (35:19)
Assuming that this divorce happens, what would you then want your life to look like in three years' time?

Where will you be living? How will the division of care for the children be? Will you be working?

Where would you be living? So not only a country, also place, house, just a general picture of what your life would

House Of Peregrine (35:42)
Yeah. And the answer to that question is a really good jumping off point for how you proceed with that next step, I think. What will this bring you? What will this take from you? What are you moving towards? What are you moving away from? What are your values? That's what you're also getting to, And that will not be the same for any two people.

Magali Van Maanen (36:03)
Exactly.

absolutely not. It's also helpful for someone to embrace the process of the divorce, not only see it as a terrible period in their life, but also as a threshold to a whole new life. And I think that's very important as well. a divorce is terrible.

House Of Peregrine (36:24)
I mean, I feel like you just changed everyone's life right there. feel like that was incredible wisdom that you just dropped right there. I have goosebumps. Yeah, so I would agree. And I've seen it over and over again. Relationships, I think Esther Perel said it best, you'll have many marriages in your life over the course of your life if you do choose marriage. If you are rare, it will be to the same person.

Magali Van Maanen (36:28)
Hahaha

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (36:52)
And so that I love this idea. It's very romantic idea, but also it really brings this necessity to have someone in your corner so that you can make really sound decisions based on your values and what you want and not just fear or staying in things too long or maybe being impulsive and ending something before you've actually strategized or had a really sound strategy for yourself.

Magali Van Maanen (36:52)
Yes.

House Of Peregrine (37:18)
You're doing holy work, Magali. That's all I'm going to say. in a holy way is another way of putting it.

Magali Van Maanen (37:20)
Thank you, thank you.

Yeah, well that's the goal. mean, if someone says to me, want my life to look like X in three years time, and we break it all down and we say, okay, well then what budget do you need to be able to do that? And it turns out the money's not there to be able to afford that lifestyle. Well then we have to rethink the options and come up with a plan B. And I think that's a better way of looking at it than...

people coming in and saying, okay, well divide 50-50, good luck. And I hope I never have to see you again in my office because that's genuinely how I feel. People are very welcome to come back, but I hope for them they don't have to. But I feel I'm not helping people if I'm only, let's say, doing everything the legal way.

House Of Peregrine (38:09)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's an incredibly excruciating time in life. So I see it as a portal, like a death portal you're going through. And like you said, something's on the other side of that. And so I really love having someone who is in your corner, who has that perspective. It's not necessarily about hurting the other person, although it can be, but it's not necessarily, that's not your perspective. It's about making your life what you want it to be.

And that is, it's so beautiful. Tell me how people can reach you. If they're, of course, maybe, of course, if they're, know they want to get divorced, they could reach you. But also if they just want to have a chat about what that might look like for them, how do they, what's the, what are the first steps to get ahold of you?

Magali Van Maanen (38:52)
Yeah, absolutely.

Well, the best thing is to send me an email. Either go on to our website at .deboorderadvocaten.com and my email address, also the general email address is on there. There's a contact form on the website and if you fill that in, the email will come to me. You can also give me a call. Our phone number is on the website and you can reach out and we can schedule a call.

just to discuss the situation and usually if people reach out to me I will say okay well just in five minutes tell me what's going on and either I provide just some general advice and that's it free of charge or I say okay this sounds quite complicated come into my office we'll speak for an hour and then we can determine how to move forward from that.

House Of Peregrine (39:45)
And as my friend once put it, if you need to pay for the hour, that hour will save you so much stress. That hour is worth its weight if you are able to afford that. That is, even if you don't divorce, even if you do divorce, even if you end up using mediation, that hour is worth its weight just to have an expert in your corner for an hour.

Magali Van Maanen (39:52)
Yes. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (40:09)
In a House of Paragraph, we always advocate for having your team and for anything you're going through. And so this I see as part of your strategic team for how you want your life to look like. Doesn't mean you're getting divorced. It just means you need some advice, which is actually really, really nice. Is there anything else we didn't cover that you see all the time or you wanted to say? You have so much wisdom and so much respect from the international community that I want to leave that final question for you.

Magali Van Maanen (40:34)
Well, thank you. What I think is very important is that, as you said, that people have a team and that could be lawyers, could be financial people, could be friends, family. But I also say speak to a therapist because I'm not a therapist. I can help you and on the legal side, I can help you with the divorce.

But I haven't been trained to listen to all your troubles or woes. And of course I'm too expensive for that. And what I often see is that people who have spoken to a therapist are better at also determining what their life will look like in three years. And also if people go to couples therapy before they come to me, whether it's as a mediator or as a lawyer,

I see that they are better equipped to communicate with each other, which immensely helps the divorce process itself. Holding a grudge never works. And of course you're mad, and that's completely fine. I'm okay with you being mad, but holding a grudge doesn't help the divorce process. And having a therapist behind you will certainly help navigate that process.

House Of Peregrine (41:42)
Yeah, that's really good advice. Even though I feel like you have like kind of the presence of a therapist, I'm sure that you're actually not. I love that. That's really good advice. And so I want people to leave asking themselves this question that you ask them so beautifully. What do you want if you're considering getting divorced, if you're considering, especially if you're living abroad, what do want your life to look like and consult with people before you make that?

Magali Van Maanen (41:51)
No.

House Of Peregrine (42:11)
If you are on the fence about this decision, speak with people in the country you're living in and also the country you have any ties to before you make any big decisions.

Magali Van Maanen (42:22)
Absolutely.

House Of Peregrine (42:23)
Awesome. And of course, this is not in cases of abuse. We have all those disclaimers. This is not legal advice. But Magali, I think you've given us an amazing start to anything we have. Any person who's going through this really pivotal time in their life, thank you so much for agreeing to come on. I hope that people will reach out to you and I really appreciate your time today.

Magali Van Maanen (42:44)
Thank you for having me and always happy to advise people who need it.

House Of Peregrine (42:49)
Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And thank you to everyone for joining us today. We will put all of Magali's contact info in the show notes. And please do reach out if you are going through something like this, especially if you are one of our Peregrines. Thank you again for joining us and we'll see you next time.