Moving Abroad, Motherhood, and the End of Old Rules (with Vanessa Bennett)
Vanessa Bennett (00:00)
even if you are somebody who bristles at the term patriarchy at the end of the day, it's still a dominator system. And honestly, I would argue, and I get a lot of flack for this from my female audience, that even matriarchies are still a dominator model.
this is why it's so uncomfortable because we've literally, as people never done this before, we're birthing something new. We're trying anyway, right? And that's why it's so hard. so whether we're talking about patriarchy, capitalism, white supremacy, colonialism, misogyny, Any of these systems that say somebody's above, somebody's below
Whenever there's a hierarchy, that's the systems of oppression, the systems of dominance that I refer to. And so when you become a mother within a system of dominance, you unfortunately have to take on centuries worth of rules and ways of living and
House Of Peregrine (01:23)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast. I'm Mickelle Weber and author of the Motherhood Myth and the Host of the Cheaper Than Therapy podcast. She has also recently moved abroad from the US to Costa Rica with her partner and daughter.
Welcome Vanessa, I am so excited to talk to you today.
Vanessa Bennett (01:44)
Thank you, Mikkel, for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation. And yes, Costa Rica, you may or may not hear some mopeds or trucks in the background as good as our equipment is. I can't catch all of it.
House Of Peregrine (01:53)
Yeah, I I usually have construction, because I live in Amsterdam, so it happens. ⁓ I am used to it, and we, yeah, I could go on and on. But I am such a fan of yours. I've listened to your podcast since, I think, since the beginning you and Danae, and then when you wrote this book and moved abroad, I knew I wanted to have you on the show, because you speak with very much a lot of clarity to experiences that other people can't quite name.
Vanessa Bennett (01:58)
You're used to it.
House Of Peregrine (02:17)
And so I'm excited to get into it about both of these things with you. Many of my audience may not know that you and your partner John were living in LA when there was the wildfires and that destroyed your home. then that caused what, how would you describe it? I don't want to describe it for you. I only know from your social media. So tell me how that process works.
Vanessa Bennett (02:40)
Yeah, I we didn't know right away that we would end up abroad. I think that we, like a lot of people, have been talking about going abroad or leaving the states and trying something new for a while. And then when the fires happened and, you know, not just our house, but our entire community was decimated, it really gave us like a pause, mostly because where are we going to go? I mean, we could have rented in LA for three times the rent because everything got jacked up.
because there were so many people looking, just didn't feel resonant. And, you know, our community had had to scatter. And so, I don't know, we had this idea, let's go somewhere at least for a year where we can downshift and kind of process everything that happened. And I kept saying, I want to be able to make the decision for the next step from a more grounded place. And I feel like being here amidst all of this is the opposite of that. And so I had been to Costa Rica a few times prior and I knew he would love it too. And so.
This is where we landed.
House Of Peregrine (03:34)
Amazing. And people make this decision for all sorts of reasons. But what we talk about a lot on this podcast is this paradigm shift that happens before, during, after, and for the rest of your life after you live abroad. And not just from the states everywhere. And actually, when you do that, you have more in common with people who have done it around the world than you do with the people who stayed in the country. And so welcome, welcome to the worldwide network of peregrines. No, but I love.
Vanessa Bennett (03:37)
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
The club.
House Of Peregrine (04:00)
of all of your work right now. So we have so many places to start, but where I want to start is I think in the midst of this you were publishing your book. Do I have that right? Or is it like you were kind of doing both?
Vanessa Bennett (04:09)
I was, yeah, I was
almost done and I had one major heavy lift to do with an edit. And it was basically due like the week of the fires. So I took another six weeks and, you know, God bless my publisher. They were able to keep the deadline. And, but yeah, amidst, you know, not having a home and bouncing around, trying to figure out next steps, I finished my last edit and sent her to press.
House Of Peregrine (04:32)
Nice. And The Motherhood Myth is literally the book that I would have loved to have. I have three kids. They're now 15. Yeah. It's, but the shift that you describe in the book, which is maybe you can give us a little, I want to give our reader. So I want to tell you, see if I'm right about what the book is. I know I've read, I've read the book, I've been in the book club, but I would call it the book everyone needs to kind of make the turn.
Vanessa Bennett (04:39)
Same.
Yeah.
Mm.
House Of Peregrine (05:00)
of
from going to this maybe outdated mindset of motherhood to a more aligned one with thriving in motherhood. And it's a systemic thing. And so that my partner and I went through this transition with no map. And my audience knows I wrote a TED talk about it and all this stuff. But your book really brings together
Vanessa Bennett (05:09)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (05:23)
this really grounded approach and also context for what, again, what is going on because you can become enemies really fast if you make these realizations about motherhood in isolation and the only one that's holding you, holding these, the front line of that is your partner. And I see so many relationships break up over this, especially abroad, divorce rates are astronomical already, but...
Vanessa Bennett (05:29)
Mm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (05:50)
So that's how I would describe your book, like quickly, but I would love for you to describe that paradigm shift and how it happened for you.
Vanessa Bennett (05:59)
Yeah, I I think, you know, I laughed. said me too, because I actually I was in a weird editing place of my book and I asked a friend of mine who was also an author, you know, some direction. And she's the one that actually said to me, write the book that you wish you had had. Right. And so it was such a direction for me. And that's exactly what I feel like I did. I mean, I could have gone on forever. This book could have been twice as long and it was already 300 pages. My editor was like, you know, tone it down. But yeah, I mean, I felt like
House Of Peregrine (06:24)
Like I'm shifting paradigms
here. That's what it takes.
Vanessa Bennett (06:26)
I squeeze it into 300 pages, come on.
But my, know, for me, it was really important to your point to have the context. I'm a big fan of understanding like, how did we get here? For me, the question of how did we get here has a few different, I guess, there's a few reasons why I ask that question, right? I think first off, it's really useful so that we stop personalizing something.
So when we understand that it's bigger than us, we understand that we're kind of part of a larger system, right? Regardless of what that is, it helps us realize that we're not broken and that we didn't really consciously choose this. It was kind of put upon us, right? And so whether it's my own personal work or my work as a therapist with clients, helping clients understand how they got here is a huge and fundamental way for us to shift out of, I don't want to say necessarily victim mode, but it shifts you into an empowered.
a more empowered place. And so that was really the most important thing for me. It was like, okay, let's, let's sprinkle in obviously the depth psychology aspect of it, which is really connecting more to like the psycho spiritual part of ourselves. Right. But let's also make sure we understand the context and the history so that we can all kind of join forces together. Right. And realize it's like us against them.
House Of Peregrine (07:39)
Yeah, well, and I was trying during this, this was 10 years ago now. So this was my world I was spinning in. And that was part of my departure from the US actually was I kind of saw these systems and I was like, I have this moment where I realized I was having a girl, I have a son first and then a daughter. And the sonogram came on and it was a girl and I was like, she's not she's not growing up like this. I'm really sorry, we got to go. Even if that's to isolate and just figure out what's going on. And my partner wasn't quite there yet. He wasn't quite
Vanessa Bennett (08:01)
Mm, yeah.
That's right.
House Of Peregrine (08:09)
seeing it. He was trusting my intuition, but kind of like, okay, we're going, we're going for an adventure. We went for a family, but that was part of it. This structure, and it exists everywhere, so we didn't escape it, but what it did for us is gave us breathing room from the ingrained structures that were familiar to be able to examine it from the outside. So pick apart what's US, what's religious, what's
Vanessa Bennett (08:29)
Yes.
House Of Peregrine (08:32)
you know, all these different parts, these paradigms, we could pick them apart and realize who we were as a couple without them. And so that deconstruction was part of our process of moving abroad.
Vanessa Bennett (08:39)
Mm.
Yeah, I mean, that's powerful. think that to even be able to recognize or realize that that's what y'all were doing at the time. mean, again, it's like most of us, you know, it's like telling a fish that they're in water. We don't even realize that we're in water, right? So to be able to pull out and be able to see it from that 30,000 foot perspective, I think is so empowering because then again, look, it's just like when you go into therapy for the first time and you start unpacking like the familial wounds, right?
And you start to go, that's actually not mine. That's my grandmother's or that's my uncle's. And you can put it down, right? And you can make more of a conscious kind of embodied decision about where do I go next? That's what that does, right? Those paradigms to your point.
House Of Peregrine (09:26)
That is not what it did for us. So it was a big power struggle. But what I'm trying to learn from us, and we've done quite a bit of work and on this podcast as well, kind of chronicled it a bit, but my partner's very private. So I try to walk that line, which is another question I want to ask you, because your book is so deeply personal. And I love the stories you share because they are so needed, but also not when you're telling a story about a couple, you're telling a story about two people and
Vanessa Bennett (09:29)
⁓ tell me more.
House Of Peregrine (09:56)
it often, especially in this realm, can be shameful or they are the bad guy. And you've walked that line beautifully, I think. But when we were going through it, I became the enemy. I was the only one saying these words, right? Everyone else was like, even my friends were like, you're crazy, just so you know. And so that was quite a lonely thing to go through. So when I say your book would have been great, it would have been great.
But what I've noticed when people move abroad is these structures become even more, and I wanted to find these structures, but these structures become even more, either have a bigger hold or they become more cemented. So whatever structure you have, unless you're striving to escape or remodel or rearrange things, it actually traps you, it can trap you more into these structures. And so I want you to talk a little bit about the systems that
have defined motherhood and how you're trying to change that a little bit as well. Because we need to be more specific because we're talking with an audience. have to keep remembering that.
Vanessa Bennett (10:59)
Yeah, I I think that, you know, my partner, John, will jokingly say sometimes, man, I really miss Vanessa 1.0. I wish I could get some more that. Because it is like pre-kid, post-kid, right? I mean, we are just not the same person. It's just the reality. I mean, and I continue to evolve, but that was really like the fire that was kind of lit under my ass, right, for all this understanding and unpacking. And he kind of got dragged along whether he wanted to or not. And it was...
House Of Peregrine (11:13)
Yeah.
Vanessa Bennett (11:28)
there was many, many conversations around like, this is the direction I'm going in and this is the way that I want, you know, my daughter to be raised and I want my life to look and I want to feel. And so we're either doing this together where we're both unpacking these systems together or I'm gonna continue doing it. And then at some point this container is gonna have to change because I can't be in this dynamic unless you're kind of on board, right? And I mean, he's read the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
House Of Peregrine (11:52)
Can we just pause right there? That
is an incredibly brave thing to do and I've been there and like I almost started crying when you said it because saying that I'm going this direction, this is how I wanna feel and we're gonna, it's you and me kid like we're fighting the entire system together. That is a moment, that's a moment in marriage when that happens and it can happen for a variety of reasons but this one is really tricky and it's actually very of the moment.
Vanessa Bennett (12:16)
It is.
And I didn't, you I don't want it to sound like I gave him an ultimatum, because I really didn't. It was done through the lens of love, right? And I mean, listen, we're talking about my partner and I are both therapists. So obviously there's a lot of these kinds of conversations that are kind of already happening, right? This is not like suddenly I come out of nowhere and I'm like, I'm doing this deeper inquiry work. It's like, you know, this is kind of the waters we swim in. But.
It wasn't that I gave him an ultimatum. just said like, to your point, this is where I want my life to go. And you and I will always be connected. We will always love each other. We don't necessarily have to stay in this specific setup to do that, right? So it's really your decision to make. Like you either want to go on that journey or you don't.
House Of Peregrine (13:04)
No, that is, it's not it's my way or the highway. It's literally like we are going the wrong direction. And for me, it was like, I never signed up for whatever it is we're doing right now. Like whatever this is, someone signed up for this for me. Like whatever we're doing right now.
Vanessa Bennett (13:04)
spark.
Well, that's exactly it. And so then to kind
of follow that thread, you started, we started to talk about, right? When we talk about these systems, the way that I talk about them in the book is I use Renee Eisler's language because I think it lands a bit softer for people who tend to bristle at language like the patriarchy or capitalism or misogyny. Now I'm talking about all of those things, but essentially what she says is we call them dominator systems, right? And so,
House Of Peregrine (13:47)
which I love, yep.
Vanessa Bennett (13:47)
If you can
look at a system and you can say that it is created kind of on the backs of or continues to run on the backs of this belief that somebody is above and somebody is below, right? That's it. That's all it takes. And so even if you are somebody who bristles at the term patriarchy at the end of the day, it's still a dominator system. And honestly, I would argue, and I get a lot of flack for this from my female audience, that even matriarchies are still a dominator model.
So as we continue to kind of go down this path, we're all saying, know, down with the patriarchy. I keep saying, matriarchy is also not the answer. We're actually, this is why it's so uncomfortable because we've literally, as people never done this before, we're birthing something new. We're trying anyway, right? And that's why it's so hard. so whether we're talking about patriarchy, capitalism, white supremacy, colonialism, misogyny, right? Any of these systems that say somebody's above, somebody's below or somebody's above earth.
somebody's above animals, right? Whenever there's a hierarchy, that's the systems of oppression, the systems of dominance that I refer to. And so when you become a mother within a system of dominance, you unfortunately have to take on centuries worth of rules and ways of living and honestly nonsense.
That to your point I didn't ask for I didn't choose this I know intuitively in my body that this does not feel right and I don't want to participate in it But for a lot of us again fish and water number one. I don't even realize I have that choice But number two, what is another choice even look like right? And so I think I tried to give people not only understanding of that but also like well here's a possibility or here's some possibilities
House Of Peregrine (15:30)
Yeah, I remember the beginning of my journey again now 10 years or more ago. I would talk to friends about this and literally the same thing kept happening, which was they would be like, my God, good point. Then I would say, you know, I don't, this is my agreement with my partner, whatever, you find your own. But there was kind of this moment where their brain switched. And then immediately what always happened, and this is so strange, is that they would maybe not do their husband's laundry.
Vanessa Bennett (15:36)
Hmm.
House Of Peregrine (15:59)
And then it was always the same reaction. Like they always would say, okay, I'll do the laundry. And then they wouldn't do their wives laundry. And it was like, and they wouldn't do anyone, but their laundry. So they would take over the laundry and then they wouldn't do anyone, but their own laundry. And I was like, this is wild. These are people from different countries. Cause I was here already. And so this was like people from men from around the world who were reacting to their wives wanting to change the agreement for some, in some way, in some small way.
Vanessa Bennett (16:18)
Mm.
House Of Peregrine (16:28)
by the same exact reaction, which was, now I just do my own laundry. I'm not responsible for yours or the kids. And it was just this little bit of violence that I think, I want you to speak to that. I want you to speak to how your book helps couples navigate this because this book is written for, it says the motherhood myth, but I think it could be read by men as well. But how did you navigate that? How do you suggest people navigate the real violence? These are small violences.
Vanessa Bennett (16:33)
Mm.
Sure.
House Of Peregrine (16:55)
but we know there's gonna be reaction when we learn about these systems and try and calibrate differently. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Vanessa Bennett (17:03)
Yeah, I mean, to your point, I wrote this book, yes, to the lens of motherhood, but not only for mothers. So I've had many people read it who women who are not mothers themselves, women who are adopted mothers or step parents, but also, you know, men, I've worked with same sex couples around these same same topics. But at the end of the day, one of the key messages I really wanted to drive home in this book is
And many of us have heard this saying before, but men suffer just as much under these dominator systems, patriarch in particular, as women do. And that's really hard, I think, for a lot of women to hear. But so even in this specific example that you're giving, I think the first reaction, and it's a very understandable reaction, is anger. Like, well, fuck them, right? Like, I can't believe they would do that. Like, what assholes, right?
I've done this work long enough where my first reaction is, I'm hearing you say this, is I feel sad for their part. I feel sad for the men, right? Because what I've come to understand, and it's not like I'm the only one that's had these revelations. I mean, through so many amazing works by, know, Bell Hooks and all the women who have come before me, when you look at that and you realize that as a being, you are brought up with a certain amount of expectation that people should...
cater to you, that people should do X, Y, and Z, right? Or that you don't have to do X, and Z because somebody will swoop in and do it for you. Sure, on one hand we can go, that's great, must be nice. But what I see is actually a very underdeveloped sense of self. That makes me very sad. And what I would see come into my practice all the time, and I still do, is this kind of battle between that like under-functioning, over-functioning.
personality structure, and that's not usually gendered. It can be very often, but these underdeveloped senses of like taking pride in what I do and, you know, wanting to, from the depths of my soul, like care for and nurture those people in my life that I love. And that's not gendered, right? But it comes from this innate desire. Both men and women are born with similar desires. We kind of train it.
out of our boys into our men, right? And I actually find that really sad. We cut them off from so much connection and so much warmth and so much spiritual connection, eroticism, you know, it does not actually help them. And so, I don't know, I guess it's a long-winded way to say, I hope that in this book we're able to say, let's look at how these systems are actually hurting both parties. You know, we're speaking heteronormatively here.
but they're hurting both the men and the women in these partnerships, not just the women. Oftentimes, in my experience, it is the over-functioner in any relationship, and that's not gendered, that actually has to be the one that goes first, as far as like putting the rope down, the tug of war rope, and saying, I will not over-function anymore, and that can mean a lot of different things.
House Of Peregrine (19:55)
Yeah.
Vanessa Bennett (19:59)
because oftentimes the under functioner kind of has a sweet deal in a lot of ways. And also they believe that they're not enough, not worthy, not competent, not capable truly. And so they're not gonna risk the shame from trying. And so it really, if you're hearing me out there and you know that you are more of the over functioner, just know, unfortunately you might have to go first.
House Of Peregrine (20:21)
Yeah, well, and I think it's really brave, like I said to you, especially when you have, let's say you have a visa on the line. And this is where our audience is again, shaking up this norm when you're a guest in a country is another layer of, and even if you're privileged as all get out, I mean, I feel I am very privileged. It was still scary for me because if our relationship didn't make it through this transition, I was going to have to make some tough choices. I had three toddlers when we moved here.
Vanessa Bennett (20:24)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
Yes.
Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (20:49)
And so it was very high stakes and it becomes high stakes quicker. My first reaction was fear. It was like, oh my God, everyone around me, every man around me at that time was like a super feminist and they were all reacting this way. So it showed me where the world, I didn't know that's where we were in the world. And this was 2016. We had moved to the Netherlands like in July. And so I thought it was just me.
Vanessa Bennett (21:04)
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (21:17)
that I was feeling all of this structural stuff. was like, this isn't the way the world works cognitively. My body was like, I'm in danger. So we moved here, Brexit happened, elections happened. The world showed that it is indeed that way. And we've been kind of dealing in these structures ever since. But it's been, so for people living abroad, again, these structures you're talking about, this dominator structure.
Vanessa Bennett (21:25)
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (21:43)
it comes in the form of relationships, structures, and we're seeing it internationally in countries and the way they react with each other. And so what you're speaking to with such a beautiful title is actually world changing. And so I think this is part of at least living abroad for me was seeing the cult in my own culture and how it affects other, how it affects on the world stage, these dynamics.
Vanessa Bennett (21:56)
Mm.
House Of Peregrine (22:10)
So now I want you to go over codependency, if you wouldn't mind. We're gonna go back and forth between depth and learning what these things mean. I love how you define it. I've heard it defined a lot. I love the definition that you kind of work with and your story about couples therapy. just made me, like, I was just like, I feel sane ⁓ throwing the book, throwing your ear pod. You have a story where you go to this therapist and you enjoy their work and they say, read this book.
Vanessa Bennett (22:13)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm ⁓
House Of Peregrine (22:36)
and you say, okay, and you read it and you get to a certain part that talks about always being available to your partner, which.
is, you know, in some circles, very much how people, these are leading therapists, I think I know who the book is by, and I had the same reaction. I was like, this book, we're not doing this book. This was in the phase when we were doing books. It's like, this book, no, they have good things to say, not this part. And so the reason it was because they were going against this idea, which you bring forward in the book very beautifully, of interdependency. So can you walk us through that shift, if you would?
Vanessa Bennett (22:50)
You
Yes. Yep.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think so much of, know, I started unpacking a lot of my codependent ways of relating prior to having a child. And I think that, again, kind of using that image of the fire kind of under my ass, what I realized, you know, looking at this little baby in my hands was I just absolutely refused to pass this on. Like, I just do not want her to relate to other people, myself included, through this lens. you know, codependency has kind of been the flag that I've waved for many years.
And there's so much misconception out there around what this term means, you know? I often will use this very pithy kind of definition where I just say, it's really just as simple as if you're good, I'm good. If you're not good, I'm not good, right? And so ultimately my sense of self, my sense of being okay in my skin is based outside of myself. It's based on if somebody else or something else actually.
you know, is okay. And so what do I need to do to make you okay so that I can be okay? And we learn many, many, many maladaptive strategies to get that to happen, right? We people please, we contort ourselves, we are not honest about our needs. We learn, I like to call them kind of backdoor ways of communicating. So like passive aggressiveness, for example, instead of being just clear.
and kind and concise in our communication. Ultimately, not because we are malicious, but because we are acting out of fear, to use your word, right? We're terrified of being abandoned. It's kind of the through line that I say almost every human I've ever talked to has, whether they realize it or not. And it's the wound through which we relate to everyone. It's not just romantic. It's our children, it's our families, it's our work.
I always say like once a codependent, always a codependent. So it's insidious.
House Of Peregrine (24:55)
And I, and I
made, yeah, it's insidious. And I made the point in my Ted talk about how actually the financial system may be worldwide, but in my experience actually forces you to become codependent in financial ways. It's actually celebrated. It's forced. It's, it's, it's really, really damaging. And I think women may be in particular because of these systems, that is the safer way of going in a lot of.
Vanessa Bennett (25:03)
Yes.
Yes.
House Of Peregrine (25:23)
this structure, so while it's valid, it's not healthy. survival, yep.
Vanessa Bennett (25:28)
No, it's survival. mean, we learned it.
This is again, this is the understanding how we got here, right? I don't look at any woman and blame her for being financially trapped, for example, right? We have been taught, number one, that we've been taught this is what we do, but number two, I mean, in the States women couldn't have bank accounts until 1978, right? Like that's, my mom was not a child by that point. And so this is one generation we're talking about, right? So of course women are on the same.
playing field. Of course, we don't have the same understanding and knowledge. I often say that the financial system is actually the final domino in all of this. It's really helping women gain financial independence and understanding. And to kind of weave in this word interdependence, the thing about us functioning as interdependent beings, I think it's conflated a lot with independence or hyperindependence. And that's so not what we mean.
In order to relate to each other from a state of interdependence, really what that means is I am a sovereign autonomous being. You are a sovereign autonomous being. And so we relate to each other from that place, right? We're not relating to each other from the place of I need you to be something else other than you are for me to be okay, because I'm doing the work to be okay. And I'm not necessarily needing anybody else to do it, right? And vice versa. But also kind of bringing in
House Of Peregrine (26:49)
No, want to pause right there because in the middle of this battle, it's really easy to say, I need you. What is the difference in this conversation in saying, this is where I'm going and I want you to come with me and I need you to be a certain way in order for me want to stay in this container. That is a very difficult turn in this process of going from codependence dominant structure to interdependence and a more egalitarian or
Vanessa Bennett (26:53)
Yes.
Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (27:19)
partnership model. I don't know what the other end of that you have a word. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Bennett (27:21)
Yeah. Well, partnership model is what Rhianne Eisler says, right? It's dominator and partnership.
So that would be a good kind antidote. I mean, this kind of ties back into what you were saying about when the stakes are really high. This is not to minimize the very real fear. This is not imagined fear. Again, I these systems are real. And women live within systems where financially they are not on the same playing field as men. And they have children to support.
To your point, you're in another country. mean, all of these fears are real, right? It has to, the kind of healing of the codependent way we relate to other people has to coincide with our healing to, let's see if I can articulate this well. It's the inner work around my relationship to something larger than myself. And I don't necessarily mean religion, right? But this is the depth component.
House Of Peregrine (28:09)
Yep, that, yep, yes.
Vanessa Bennett (28:16)
cool, great, I can learn all day long how to set boundaries and how to communicate more effectively, yada, yada, yada. If I'm not also doing my work around, I have trust that no matter what, I will be okay. I have trust that I can do hard things, I can make it through hard things, that I can struggle and suffer and I will still be standing on the other side of it. I'm not going to do the risky thing.
which in my example is telling my then husband, right? Who's my husband now, but we weren't when she first was born. This is said with love. Like we will still be in each other's lives in a loving way, but in order for this container to stay this container, this is the direction I need to move. So you get to make your own choice, right? This is not me threatening you. This is not me telling you what that looks like for you.
I'm not even telling you what your work looks like. It could go a very different direction than mine. But I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not also been doing my work around trusting in being held by something larger than myself and knowing innately that I would be okay no matter what.
House Of Peregrine (29:23)
Yeah, and a tricky thing, right? Because nobody, or it's a very tricky thing to say something larger than yourself, but it is sometimes the missing component in this conversation, which I love that you bring forward is the systems are not what you have to trust in. And it's not a individualistic, I can do everything myself. It's not that either. It's something else. And I also struggle with spirituality, all this stuff like,
Vanessa Bennett (29:33)
I agree.
House Of Peregrine (29:47)
but I've done a lot of work in the psychedelic realm, which I've chronicled on this podcast with me and my partner. And that's kind of the layer that made sense when these moments, because he thought I was literally leaving him because I was like, I'm done with this. What this represents, and nobody was talking about this at the time, but this is that tricky and it ends up being a power struggle for sometimes the rest of your relationship.
Vanessa Bennett (29:56)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yep.
House Of Peregrine (30:13)
And so this turn, what I love about your book is it is giving some wisdom through this transition. ⁓ so codependency, interdependence, and then you talk a little bit about couples therapy. I wanna give people a little bit of a, what happened for me and my partner is we ended up.
Vanessa Bennett (30:21)
Hmm.
House Of Peregrine (30:34)
recognizing some of the patterns of therapists that were very unintentionally abusive. But that was a growing for us where we could turn towards each other and go, okay, we as a team do not accept this treatment from therapists. And so for us, but it tears other people apart and it's growing. I'm not trying to say anything about the field, but I love that you spoke to it in your book. And so I wanna give people a little bit of color there if you wouldn't mind.
Vanessa Bennett (30:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes.
I mean, I love that you say you don't want to say anything about the field, but I will.
House Of Peregrine (31:03)
because it.
Yeah, but because I have read so much and I was basically a scholar about what we were going through, even though I'm not, I was able to say this is the system their brain is in. This is the system. I had therapists tell me like, you're never gonna do better than him. You should just stay in the marriage. Like what you're going through, you're being picky. These are not things you should be concerned about. And I was like, we are trying to leave patriarchy. That's what doing. And they didn't get it, right? And that's no dig at them. They did help us in different ways, as you say in your book.
But I would love for you to speak to how to conceptualize this problem if you are seeking help from a therapist that may not be at the level this book is because it is still, sadly, advanced.
Vanessa Bennett (31:44)
Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think of how to even like do this succinctly. So similar to you, what I started realizing very early on is many people within the psychology realm who work not just even with couples, but with individuals too, are again, the fish and water and have not done their own deconstruction work, right? And if they have not done any kind of inner personal,
House Of Peregrine (31:48)
You
Vanessa Bennett (32:07)
deconstructive work, they are going to still not understand that they are a fish in water. And so that is the way that they are going to relate to you. You know, there's this saying in psychology, which is we can only meet people so far as we're able to meet ourselves. We're only able to accept in others that which we're able to accept in ourselves. So what I find so often is even some of these very big, very powerful, mostly white men, which yawn therapists.
that speak this stuff into the ether, when you look at their own partnerships and the way that they are behind the curtain, it is still very much exactly what I'm speaking about deconstructing. So I say that, I'm not blaming them, but I'm saying, of course that's where they're at. This stuff for them is activating, it activates their shadow, it activates...
potentially some ego stuff for them, right? Like I haven't examined this stuff. It feels dangerous. And so I need to shut it down, right? We all do this. Therapists are not kind of immune to shadow work and projections, right? Kind of coming up. That's right. And I think that at the end of the day, therapy in and of itself was founded on a dominator system to begin with. And it's still kind of rides on that coattail, right? Which is one up, one down.
House Of Peregrine (32:59)
Yeah, no, no.
They're people, yep.
Vanessa Bennett (33:18)
I'm the expert, right? I'm the air quote doctor and you're the patient. And we still kind of hold it that way. I'm very much not in alignment with that. I do not hold my clients in that way. I don't speak about myself in that way. I don't even like the word expert, if I'm being honest. And I think that when you are going out, if you are going out trying to do some of this work with this third party,
The container can be exceptionally helpful because ultimately at the end of the day, we need somebody who doesn't have any skin in the game, who can just look at us and say, hey, here's a pattern about you that I've noticed. And listen, if you get mad at them or you get activated by that, so be it, right? Because that's part of our job. And so it is really helpful to have that third party in a lot of ways. But there are some questions and some kind of, I don't know, vetting, I guess, if you really wanted to.
get a sense for where they're at. And honestly, I tell people all the time, you're interviewing them. So we need to get a little bit more comfortable asking therapists or whoever we're going to see, maybe it's an intimacy coach, et cetera, what their experience is, right? What's your personal experience with therapy, right? How much therapy have you done? Are you still currently in therapy? I will shout from the rooftops all day that therapists should be in their own therapy forever and ever.
It's a non-negotiable for me. If I ever hear a therapist say that they don't do their own therapy, that's like the biggest red flag I've ever heard. You might want to ask them, know, relationship questions. Are you married? Right? Have you done couples work? What are some of your mentors in the couples therapy realm? You know, you can kind of research them, look them up, see what their big kind of statements are, right? See if you agree.
House Of Peregrine (34:46)
Yep.
Vanessa Bennett (34:57)
And if a therapist gets weird about that and they're like, well, my personal life and I don't really talk about that, that's totally their prerogative, but you don't have to then be with that therapist if they're not willing to say to you, which I would, I would 100 % say to a client, yeah, I'm married now, took me a long time to get there. We're actively in couples on and off. We have been, we have our struggles. These are some of them. I've got nothing to hide. So I guess long-winded way of saying, don't be afraid to...
House Of Peregrine (35:18)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
Vanessa Bennett (35:23)
interview them to make sure that you feel like you're in alignment, right?
House Of Peregrine (35:25)
Right.
Yeah, and my my what I've been trying to come up with for my own audience and my own friends even is because this is a very specific and it's becoming a little more prevalent now. But when we first started, it wasn't there were no questions to say, do you understand? Like, do you understand what patriarchy is? That's what I started asking. Do you understand what patriarchy is? Do you do you understand that our goal here is to try and reconstruct that lovingly?
Vanessa Bennett (35:47)
Right. That's right.
House Of Peregrine (35:54)
but we are deconstructing our entire relationship. We're coming up with new rules. That is what we're doing lovingly, but, and if you said the words, we may have to change the container, especially when I was starting, they would say, that's threatening the relationship, you're not allowed to do that. And I would say, no, that's not.
Vanessa Bennett (35:57)
That's right.
And,
but see, here's the thing, this is what I say to clients all the time. I have, again, I have no skin in this game. If y'all break up, like I don't, I'm not gonna, that's not about me. I'm not gonna personalize that, right? Like that might be the best and most loving thing for these two individual souls that happen to be in this container. And so I am going to, in my best way, help both individuals.
House Of Peregrine (36:23)
Yep. Yep.
Vanessa Bennett (36:37)
And through helping both individuals, ultimately it's going to help you as a system, even if that means the system and the container changes. I am very, and because you know Dene's work, mean, Dene and I obviously have talked about this for years. I don't believe in the whole you stay together no matter what. I think that's a very outdated system. And I think a lot of these systems are, again, we're kind of...
We're working within systems that we have been told not to question and enough is enough, right? Like why, why can't we question this stuff? And so as a couple of therapists, very often, like, I, listen, I have no agenda here. Like y'all can break up tomorrow. Like that's not what I'm doing here. You I'm trying to help both of you guys grow and see each other and be in the active state, the verb of loving each other. And sometimes,
House Of Peregrine (37:19)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Vanessa Bennett (37:30)
in the relationship, we're not actually able to love each other well. Sometimes we have to change the container in order to love each other well. That, if I do have an agenda, that's my agenda, to make sure we are loving each other well.
House Of Peregrine (37:42)
Yep.
So, so well put. And the last thing I want to say about that before I just want to quickly before we go talk about your adventure abroad and how two therapists are conceptualizing that. I really think that this is pioneering work. I've worked with some of the foremost therapists in the world actually. And these are new ideas. And so I just want to commend you for this work. I love that you're giving people this frame.
Vanessa Bennett (37:52)
Mmm, please.
House Of Peregrine (38:09)
but it is still like, you could probably start an institute with people who are trained in this just to keep people safe. Because that was our work was finally turning again in the system, having the therapist to then both of us turn towards and go, no, sorry, you're not welcome. That was part of our process, but it was a scary one. It was scary. It was scary to have to, especially when you're in this.
Vanessa Bennett (38:26)
Yes. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (38:31)
one's in patriarchy, one's out, you're in this power struggle, it is a very, very emotionally dangerous and physically dangerous can be time. So thank you for your work, but before we go, I wanna talk to you about reporting live from a relationship that was very solid. You were going through this, we're always evolving in relationships, but I think moving abroad can either
Vanessa Bennett (38:34)
Mmm.
It can be, yes.
House Of Peregrine (38:58)
bring you closer together or it tears at anything that was already there to be torn at. So I want to know how are you and John handling this? And before I wanted that, I wanted to ask you first actually about your stories in the book are so beautiful and I won't spoil any of them, but how do you guys handle this? Because in patriarchy often guys do things that are not so savory when in the throes of that final letting go of it.
Vanessa Bennett (39:04)
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (39:24)
How did you guys work through that before we get to the other part? I just am so impressed and I don't know how you're doing that, how that works for you guys.
Vanessa Bennett (39:33)
Yeah, I mean, he, again, going back to the fact that we're both in this world and in this work, I think we're both so committed to using our own personal struggle, kind of like you, right? It's like those of us who are in it and are going through it and then are able to like transmute it for other people that it was, there was nothing off the table, right? He was very much like put all of it in and, you know, I had to get him to sign a release and he's read the book and there's things that were really hard for him to read after the fact.
House Of Peregrine (40:00)
Yeah, I can imagine.
Vanessa Bennett (40:00)
⁓ But what was
also like fodder for more growth, right? Like, ooh, that's really hard to read and it's kind of activating. Okay, great. Let's talk about it some more. You know, what was activating? I think it's a continued practice of the depersonalizing that I keep referencing, you know, understanding that it's not that we're bad people, it's that we are working and living within systems that have never been questioned. And also we're kind of the first, I mean, again, there's always going to be those outliers, but
I would say generationally, we're kind of the first to really be pushing against this stuff. And so it's hard to be a way show or because you don't have anybody that's really come before you to hold the flashlight. So I say that to tell people like, you're not doing it wrong. You're just, you're doing it new. And it can feel really scary when you feel like you're the first one, you know.
House Of Peregrine (40:41)
Yep. So true.
Yeah. So tell me insights from your first six months abroad, because I know the process was longer and you guys had quite a dramatic exit with a fire. But tell me how that has shaped your relationship, your parenting, your journey overall. How, is report from the inside a little bit for me?
Vanessa Bennett (41:01)
You know, I didn't know actually until you made a comment earlier about the high divorce rate of couples who move abroad. It's kind of a joke here in the small community, the surf town that we live in. They call it the Costa Rica divorce because so many people move here and then, you know, get divorced. I would say that everybody has a story. I think many times what I'm starting to understand is that many times people, at least here,
move here because they think it'll be the bandaid. Similar to how a lot people have children, honestly. They think it will be the thing that fixes and in actuality what it does is really just shines a black light on all the problems that were already there. know, especially in a place like Costa Rica where, you know, unlike Amsterdam, for example, I mean, we are in a remote area. You know, you don't have all the creature comforts. I mean, I can get Amazon, but it might take a couple months to get here.
I don't even have an address, things like this. You lose kind of like COVID, honestly, kind of how 2020 was really a reckoning and there was a huge wave of divorces because people couldn't hide anymore. They were confronted with all the things that they were able to hide from. It's similar here, right? You slow down. You can't be as distracted as you were. And so we've struggled with that too. mean, I think landing here, I will say for me, whether it was a distraction or not, I landed...
feet on ground just as I was going in a PR mode for my book. And so it was really helpful for me to have like a thing that I was busy with, that I was focused on, that I was kind of birthing into the world. And before we actually moved here, I said to John, I'm like, listen, this is the schedule. This is what's happening, right? It's literally the month that we are landing. So I can't be your it. I can't be your therapist. I can't be your shoulder to cry on.
I can't, like you need to be out there, make friends, find a new therapist, like do what you have to do because I am gonna be so in this and I have to be and I want to be that I can't be that for you. And I'll tell you, he actually, heard me and he did just that. So it's been an interesting transition. Of course, there's been ups and downs. There's been a lot of struggles. What I have seen is that one partner thrives, one partner not so much.
I haven't really experienced that with us necessarily, but I've seen it a lot kind of in the couples that we've made friends with, at least the ones that have kind of air quotes survived this far. But it's been interesting. I'll tell you, my daughter, she's only five, but man, she's living her best life. She was the one I was the most worried about. This kid is living her best life. So I'm not worried about her at all. She's loving it.
House Of Peregrine (43:27)
Yep.
Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that we moved here when my oldest was five. And so he went right into school learning Dutch and everything. And we say now he took the brunt of our move because he was learning another language. Like he didn't want to. He was just like, why would I do this? But the way our family was transformed by this move is completely unimaginable how it would have been otherwise. And
Vanessa Bennett (43:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (43:54)
And so do you think about that like heritage wise? Because you guys don't have a plan, is that right? Like you don't have to answer if that's personal question, but usually people have like a plan, whether it's indefinite or one year or something, but it has a lot, it usually rotates a lot around their children's milestones. And so how are you guys thinking about that? If you are, and it's okay, it's only been six months if you're not.
Vanessa Bennett (44:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, we came here with a plan. came here with a one-year plan. But also our plan, not only is it revolving around her, Schools and milestones, but we're also revolving it around, we don't have something to go back to. So the last six months that we've been here, while we've been going through our own personal journey and struggles with transitioning on the home front back in Los Angeles, it changes every day.
one day we're rebuilding and then we find out that it's gonna take four years and then we find out that, you know, nobody can afford to rebuild with the insurance money they have. And then we find out that, you know, corporations are buying up lots and building condos. It's like every day it's something new. And so what we've actually, I think more than anything, and maybe this was not part of the original plan, it probably rarely is, so much of this has actually been being okay.
not being okay. So much of this has actually been a practice of we don't have a plan and can we find some ground in the instability? And, you know, I don't want to say go with the flow, like it's some kind of cheesy thing, but truly it changes every day. And so we just have to find the grounding within the family unit, the grounding within ourselves to know that again, no matter what, we'll be okay.
House Of Peregrine (45:30)
Yeah, and that's the solidarity that I've found with our family is it really, all you have is each other and the friends you could choose. And then you build from there and that's a unique way of living life. But also it's a very interesting dance. So I love, maybe you can come back on in five years or three years and give us the, you'll be writing another book. Yeah.
Vanessa Bennett (45:34)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. Yep, that's right.
I'll let you know where we're at. That's right.
House Of Peregrine (45:54)
No, but I actually, I always say that living abroad is an additional life stage. So it's like you have, you move in together, you have a baby, whatever, you move abroad. That's a whole other life stage that you have now entered in. So it has its own milestones. It has its own whatever. So what we're doing at House of Paragrad is basically trying to bring those life stages to light, like you would like a mother, book, like what to expect when you're expecting, what to expect when you're abroad. Like that's what we're trying to bring to people.
Vanessa Bennett (46:19)
That's right.
House Of Peregrine (46:20)
so that people are just less alone, so that it's less tumultuous for everyone. So even the place you're moving to, it's tumultuous for that place if you don't know what's happening to yourself. So yeah, to therapists doing it, I'm super excited to continue to follow your journey. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all this wisdom today. I really appreciate you agreeing to come on and share this with us. Thank you for the book and for your podcast. We'll link all of that below.
But if our if our audience has questions specifically like what questions to ask your therapist that one might be coming to you Like you just need to have a handy five questions, but how can they reach out to you if they want to know more?
Vanessa Bennett (46:53)
Hahaha.
I know, right?
Yeah, everything's on my website, vanessabenet.com. All the different ways you can work with me, all the different plates that I spin, and then social media. mostly on Instagram, so you can find me there at Vanessa S. Bennett.
House Of Peregrine (47:12)
Cool. And definitely I can recommend all of this stuff. So much wisdom and on the forefront of a lot of thought leadership on some of this stuff. thank you for it. Thanks for coming on. And thank you everyone for joining us on the House of Peregrine podcast. I can't wait to share this conversation with you and everything that Vanessa's up to. I will see you next time and please feel free to like and subscribe to our podcast. helps us ton.
Vanessa Bennett (47:23)
Thank you.