Beneath a Borrowed Sky: Sam Frearson Tubito on the True Meaning of Home
Sam Frearson-Tubito (00:00)
the way I look at all the different places that I've lived in, they've kind of been borrowed skies. So meaning I'm borrowing these skies, this place, the where I am now.
For the time being, as mine. Meaning, you know, when you borrow something, you're taking it and you're taking it for you, for your for yourself. It just means that in all those places, these were all my homes. they were all still home.
to me at that time.
Mickelle (00:58)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine Podcast. Today's episode, I'm excited to share with you. We have back on the author Sam Frierson Tubito, author of the upcoming Beneath a Borrowed Sky: A Woman's Search for the True Meaning of Home. She's back with us, and if you listen to our first conversation in episode 52, you already know why I'm so happy about this. It was an amazing conversation about home, identity, and what it means to build stability in a life shaped by movement.
Especially as a family living across cultures. Sam is a third-generation global nomad who has raised four fourth generation global nomads. Her children now live across the world, Portland, San Francisco, Sydney, and Barcelona, while Sam and her husband live in Italy, the fifteenth country she has called home. believes identity is shaped less by where we're from and more by who we are, and she's far more likely to ask you what your story is than where you come from.
Through her writing and talks, she supports globally mobile individuals and families navigating questions of belonging, home, and third culture identity, which she shares at wanderingidentity.com And on substack. She's joining us again today to talk about her new book, and I cannot wait for you to read it. Sam, welcome back to the podcast. I'm really excited to talk to you again.
After you've been through the writing journey.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (02:09)
Thank you so much, Mickelle What a wonderful introduction. Thank you. It's great to be back.
Mickelle (02:15)
Great. So I want you just to start briefly about telling us about the book. What it has now materialized. When we spoke before, it was in the works, but now it's coming out. So tell us.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (02:24)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
I just, yeah, I can't believe it. It's actually coming out on the sixth of June. So in four days' time, you will be able to order it on Amazon. It's all very exciting stuff. It's called Beneath the Board Sky, a woman's search for the true meaning of home. and it explores the complexities of identity, belonging, and the meaning of home through the lens of a woman, me, who has spent her life between cultures.
As a mother raising four fourth generation global nomads, she reflects on how her own upbringing shaped her and questions the choices she's made for her children. While a global nomadic life might complicate identity, true home is something we carry within us. This is the message that I bring in the book. It's about home and carrying it within you.
Mickelle (03:10)
Yeah. And motherhood, which I love.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (03:13)
Yeah, and motherhood, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are lots of different themes. Motherhood being one of the main ones as well. where I I do a lot of comparing comparisons. The big comparison is that my parents decided to send me and my brother to boarding school at a very young age rather than bring us along with all the different moves that we made, that they made and I made ultimately. and that was a really big decision.
that I made with my husband saying we are not going to be doing that with our kids. No matter where we end up, no matter where we go, we're bringing the kids with us. So I explore the reasons and the whys and did I did we make a mistake or, you know, all of that in during the book. yeah.
Mickelle (03:57)
Yeah, and that's the reason I say mother is because very very often women detach from that part of themselves and it's actually been the way you've lived is through that lens in a lot of ways. And so that's a really special thing because often publishing and all this I mean, it's like you can go on a great quest, you can have four hundred movies about a guy climbing a mountain, but there's can only be one about a mother for some reason. Like, you know what I mean? That
And so I think it's really special to be able to have multiple perspectives of mothering because your motherhood journey goes along with your life doesn't stop when you want to move abroad. Your motherhood journey and your marriage story and your your life story goes on. And so you're telling that's one of the aspects you bring in, which I think is so, so, so, so helpful, but also just really beautiful. So yeah, thanks for bringing it along with you.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (04:47)
Well, yeah.
Well, motherhood changed how I understood belonging, really, because raising my own children across borders made me reflect deeply about the identity, the stability, and what we pass on to our children. I yes, I I I was raised as a global nomad, but I was sent away and there was a massive
Break between, you know, my parents' relationship and my relationship. I didn't want that with my kids. So this is that was a tiny decision, or maybe an important decision that I made with bringing the kids along. But then I still moved them from one culture to another. We still made that decision to do the nomadic life. And it really made me un
realize that my God, you know, they're still moving around, they're still living between cultures. yes, they haven't been sent to boarding school, and yes, we have an incredibly strong and close family bond, which happens I think to a lot of expat families when they're moving from one country to another because that's who they know, that's that's they they have each other's backs. you know a lot of expat families move every two to three or four years.
and you're having to say goodbye to the life that you've created. And the only thing that really stays the same is is that that unit. so you do become incredibly close. which is wonderful, which is what I wanted. I wanted that because I didn't have that with my parents, with my with the family unit that I grew up with. and I wanted something different. and we achieved that. It's amazing, but at the same time.
they still grew up between cultures and they still find it very, very difficult to answer that question, where are you from? so and there, what's your story? I I I touch on it upon it in the book all the time. it's all it's different for every single one of them. There's four of them. They've lived it very independently, very differently and it's fascinating. a little bit heartbreaking for me because I didn't want them to suffer but but
Mickelle (06:28)
Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (06:48)
There is a realization in the book where growing up between cultures, no matter how close your family is, it's still a pain point.
Mickelle (06:59)
Yeah. It's both pain and it's amazing and painful. And I'm it's possible that you could say that growing up is a pain point. Like there's pain points no matter how you grow up. But this is a very specific kind of pain and a s very specific kind of adventure and bonding. So I feel the same way a little bit. So I just had Mother's Day with my kids and I wrote them all letters and said, Thank you for making me a mom because
Sam Frearson-Tubito (07:09)
Ha ha
Mickelle (07:25)
Creating your own belonging, that's that is a way to do it. and that creates a certain kind of bond with your kids. And it sounds like you are very aware of that. but not all of us are aware as we're doing it. So that's it's really cool that you were.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (07:39)
I think now that my kids are all grown they're all grown. I mean they're twenty-one, twenty-four, twenty-six, and twenty-seven years old, living all over the world. I have this immense pride about how they are
leading their lives right now. I wouldn't say that they are settled in any one place right now, but what they're doing is that they're navigating their lives in a very third culture kid way. They are just basic it's third culture kid is someone who it's a child who has lived a significant amount of their childhood in different countries, not their passport country and neither their parents' passport country..
Mickelle (08:04)
What is that? Tell us.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (08:18)
So in different cultures.
Mickelle (08:19)
And so what does that look like when someone's navigating their life in a very
cul third culture culture way?
Sam Frearson-Tubito (08:24)
So what does it look like? It looks like embracing the change, embracing the the newness, putting two feet in the circle and really getting on with that presence, with that, I'm gonna do this. finding friends. I mean, it's not easy. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that they are really getting into it and understand that this is what you have to do if when you move to a new place and you don't know anyone,
If you're changing jobs, for example, my daughter, she just moved. Well, well, she's done a lot of moves within the US, but she's still, and she's only 26. She's gone from San Luis Obispo to Los Angeles to San Diego, and now she's in San Francisco, all with new jobs. and you know, she's had to create her own community. how did she do that? It's just putting herself out there. Making just one friend is enough for the first the first few.
I don't know however long it is. One friend is enough, actually, to be honest. But then, you know, a typical third culture kid doesn't tend to have just one friend because they're so good at making friends, starting things anew, and believing that this is their new home. And yeah, just going a hundred percent into it. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think I think the trick, the trick is to not think it's temporary.
Mickelle (09:31)
At least temporarily.
Yeah, at least temporarily.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (09:39)
The trick is to think, you know what, this is me now. This is this is it. This is it. I'm gonna go full hog. This is my community. Because if you think it's temporary, you're not gonna put all that effort in. If you know that within, I don't know, six months, a year, two years, you're moving on, you're not gonna put all the effort in.
Mickelle (09:58)
Yeah. And that's bad that's not bad, but it's it is it does change your experience. And it changes the experience that the place has too, the the effect you have on the place. ⁓ and so if you're trying to have a positive influence in the world, investing fully where you are, even if it's temporarily, is really important, I think. And that's one of the things we Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (10:09)
Mm.
It's so important. The book is about
community. It's about so we often think home is a location, but sometimes home is simply the people who witness your lives. So
Mickelle (10:29)
That's so beautiful. We c we could just end the podcast there, but we're not going to. the title the title of your book, I really wanna dive into that a little bit. So Beneath the Barrowed Sky, it's such a striking phrase. And where where does that come from?
Sam Frearson-Tubito (10:38)
Mm.
Well, yeah, I mean, we've just talked about how it's super important to just live in the moment, yeah, and appreciate that and you know, be a hundred percent here. I'm here now. But really, what the way I look at all the different places that I've lived in, they've kind of been borrowed skies. So I've been borrowing them, meaning I'm borrowing this, I'm borrowing these skies, this place, the where I am now.
For the time being, as mine. Meaning, you know, when you borrow something, you're taking it and you're taking it for you, for your for yourself. So that's where the whole beneath the borrowed skies mean. It just means that in all those places, these were all my homes. And yes, some of them were better than others, some of them I was I was happier in some places compared to others, but they were all still home.
to me at that time. That's that's where the the title comes from.
Mickelle (11:38)
Yeah.
Perfect. And so when when we just put those two things together, it's like invest like it's permanent, but be aware of the impermanence. Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. so you said something earlier and I wanted to go back to it. about your kids and living all over the place. Last time we spoke, you said something that I have kept with me and now I think about it all the time.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (11:49)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I like that.
Mickelle (12:09)
It's like don't tell your kids they can live anywhere unless you want them to do that. And your kids live, as we said in the intro, all over the place. how do you guys navigate that as like you're not grandparents yet, but like as parents with kids all over the world, how how have you set up your life to to remain close?
Sam Frearson-Tubito (12:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
Hmm. Well, it is difficult. I mean, you have to basically invest the time. You put in the time. thank God for FaceTime. yeah, exactly. Exactly. We've just come back from Sydney. we've just celebrated Sophia's graduation. and we're very lucky. We realize how lucky we are that we are able to actually pay the money.
Mickelle (12:38)
Time in sky miles. Time in sky miles.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (12:54)
And invest in the time to be able to go and celebrate them so far away. But that's what we tend to do, you know, for the for the really important milestones, try and be there. And if you can't be there, write a letter. I've actually started writing letters to my kids. Every Sunday, I sit down and I write the letter, write a letter to one of them. No, I'm not writing four letters every Sunday, that's a lot. But
We try and Christmas is a little bit of a non-negotiable at the moment, but we're very aware that our two eldest children have partners. They actually live with their partners and things could change and they might wanna, you know, choose to do Christmas with the the other family. And absolutely you just gotta be realistic about all these things. So right now, we feel incredibly lucky that the children still want to come and
Hang out with us. our eldest, the one that lives in Portland, and our number three, the one that lives in Barcelona, they're both coming to see us in Puglia this summer. So excited. Unfortunately, the girls can't make it, but it's just one of those things. You just we just try. Try try we try and see them twice a year. I know that doesn't sound very much, but it is we're so grateful that we're able to do that at this stage.
Mickelle (14:07)
Yeah. And that's
it's it's a different it's a different life to plan for. And that's I guess what I want people to understand is when you give your kids the world, they have the world. And so that I mean, it I always say, I left I left my mom, what do I expect my kids to do? And so
Sam Frearson-Tubito (14:12)
Hmm.
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
That that
is that is definitely the reality. I did say that to my husband when we first got together. I said, you know, if we're gonna be doing this nomadic life, which I'm super happy to be happy to be doing, we've got to expand then we started having children and we had one in Milan, one in Bologna, and then two in Holland. and then we continued. We then the six of us moved to Japan. I said, We cannot expect the kids
to be just next door or even maybe in the same country. and whilst you're saying that, you know that and you believe it, but the actual reality, the reality of it is super, super hard. I mean, that is the truth. I mean, you're a mother, I want to see my children all the time. I would love to be able to just, you know, say, hey, let's, you know, meet up on Sunday for Sunday lunch or whatever. But I can't do that. so what do I do instead? You know, we we we FaceTime twice or three times a week.
Mickelle (14:58)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (15:14)
We have very regular contact. We go and see them as much as we can. But yeah, the reality is this, is that if you are going to be moving your kids around all over the world, don't expect them to be just round the corner when they're grown up.
Mickelle (15:27)
Yeah.
Yeah. It's we always say it's an I think we spoke about this last time, itchy feet or something you know, it could be genetic, we don't know about this this this need to go and explore and be in different cultures.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (15:41)
Well, I think
I think it's d i i i i it's it's a funny one, that one, because I I'm I'm one of two siblings. my brother had the same upbringing as I did. And he chose to to go to university in the UK. He married a British woman and he now has four very, very British kids and they live in London. And he chose that complete opposite to what I ended up doing. So
Mickelle (16:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (16:05)
It it it it it's yes, it's it's definitely in the family's DNA for sure, because I mean the fact that my children are fourth four are fourth generation global nomads, it's definitely in DNA. But I'm super interested to see how my kids what my kid what my kids will do. for now, they've they're quite settled.
where they are. I mean the only one that seems to have moved around a bit is number two, Francesca, who's currently in San Francisco, but she stayed in the US. I don't know. Who knows? We'll see. Yeah.
Mickelle (16:38)
Yeah. Yeah, you'll see. Okay.
So I want to change change a little bit, change gears. ⁓ I feel like when you're writing this book, we you're talking about your experience of identity and how it's changed as a woman too. So let maybe let's go to that about of course you you write about and you talk about being a supporting spouse.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (16:47)
Yeah.
Mickelle (17:05)
and how that changes your identity and how that changes a marriage or if it does and the agreements that you have. And so I have questions about I mean, we never talk about I mean, I do, but in the ethos of this conversation, we don't talk about the supporting s supporting spouse. and especially in this this somewhat it's not as common now for people to be moved around by a company.
But that cer certainly was true that the spouse was just a kind of part of the package, part of the company almost, and they were expected to adapt. how honest is your book about the benefits of that, the cost of that, the okay. Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (17:37)
Hmm.
It's very honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I definitely t I definitely talk about it. I talk about how I write about how Paolo and I had a pact from from the beginning that but I I think it probably came from the understanding that because of the way I grew up, ⁓ that
Mickelle (18:03)
Mm.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (18:06)
Basically, one half of the partnership needs to hold the fort in terms of money making. And the other half, which would okay, so that would that was my husband because he was the one that had the more promising career, let's say, or the career that was sort of, you know, skyrotic rocketing, and we decided this was after child number one. So child when when we were living in Milan, we were both on an even path, we were both working in advertising agencies.
I had a great career, a promising career and everything like that. And then I got pregnant. I had to leave work early because I had problems with the pregnancy. but you know, then your focus shifts, of course, you know, when you're when you become a mother and then you have I have the baby, and then all of a sudden we were moved to Bologna with a very young baby. And then guess what? I got pregnant again. So it was just like, okay, that's when things changed.
And I realized, okay, am I happy with this? Do I want to to do this? And we we basically had a conversation. This is this is what's so important in in in couples, is to have the conversation, to be honest with each other. and we said, I said to him, you know what, I'm actually really happy to just be the mum right now. I want to be the mum, I want to be with the kids, I want to be present for them. And if I start.
Mickelle (19:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (19:24)
my start working again, I'm gonna have to I I won't be present in a way that I want to be present because I understand every couple, every woman is different. I get that. But so Paolo and I had this conversation and we decided that this is what we were going to do. that he was going to hold the fort in terms of money making and I'll hold the fort in terms of everything else. And it worked very, very well. We had we then moved to Holland. We had two more children and
Mickelle (19:35)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (19:51)
In the meantime, it's not that I was like 100% just looking after the kids. I was also reinventing myself. You know, I became an English teacher. I was doing English English lessons privately. I worked in various volunteer in volunteer roles. in Tokyo I was a admissions director for an international school because I had a little bit more time, the children were a bit older. So
Yeah, that's the way we did it. And things are looking a little bit different now as well. The fact that we're both empty nesters, I have a lot more time to myself. my husband also has stopped his corporate career and he's gone into self employment, which is super interesting as well. The fact that all of a sudden we're both at home.
doing our own thing because I've been writing, I've also I'm doing talks and everything like that. I'm also doing something different, which you don't know. I'm actually starting to run some writing retreats and I'm super excited about that. But the interesting thing is is that we're both now working individually again, and it's it's it's an adjustment because of course he's used to me being around and available for all sorts of things, and I'm also kind of
Mickelle (20:52)
Again. Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (21:04)
struggling and battling with okay, what should I be doing? Should I be making lunch? Should I be the one that does the hoovering or whatever, even though I have a podcast call in half an hour and I need you know, things like that. But you know, again, it's all about talking. It's all about having that conversation and being honest with each other. so it's not linear. It changes all the time.
We've we've yeah.
Mickelle (21:27)
Bakes he makes regular appearances on the podcast when he can't stop barking. Thanks. He's very loud. he l Yes.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (21:29)
He's a he's absolutely adorable. Look at him. So what I'm saying is it's ⁓
it's not it's not the same, you know, at the b at the beginning of our married life of being parents, you know, we decided that he would hold the fort in terms of money making and I would hold the fort in terms of everything else. It worked like that for quite a while until
until it didn't and then it's ch it changes and it's okay. You just have to have that conversation.
Mickelle (22:01)
Yeah. And I think now, and this is just the way the world is now. Also, women have different pressures, men have different maybe the same pressures, I don't know. But they have different pressures to be more involved at home. That translates to a lot of a lot more pressure when you're abroad. So it's like most of the people I know who live abroad are not doing it with the company. They're doing it on their own. They're navigating.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (22:17)
Mm.
Mickelle (22:24)
Both of them having work, having kids. And so it becomes even more important that you're honest, I think.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (22:31)
Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. It it is. It's it's having that conversation. They're difficult conversations to have, but they're so important to have. and and like that you you all start on the on on the on the same page. Yeah.
Mickelle (22:33)
And
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's that's one thing that we talk about a lot because you said you were changing you were reinventing yourself. That was professionally, but also internally, you're reinventing yourself, each new culture you're in. And so i i again, when one of you is working, one of you's not, that can happen at different speeds as well. And so
Sam Frearson-Tubito (23:05)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's very typical that this is what happens is the the partner that is left the partner the partner that's not working, the partner that is looking after the children and and is the one that actually has all the difficulty in the assimilating, in the adapting because
You know, the partner that's working, they're just going to a familiar office, they're working with familiar people. I mean, maybe not familiar people, but just, you know, in this familiar environment, let's put it that way. whilst the
Mickelle (23:35)
They have a pl they
already have a place to belong in the new country. Yep. Yep.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (23:38)
Yeah, they already belong somewhere. Absolutely. Absolutely. Whilst
the the the partner that the that that doesn't have that has to create that from scratch. ⁓ and not only does they have do they have to create that for themselves, but they have to create it for the children as well. So it it it's I'm not saying it's harder, it's just different. And it always needs to be acknowledged. ⁓ yeah.
Mickelle (23:48)
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah. And so when you talk about that in your book, it it you guys had kind of a sounds like a very honest conversation and aligned goals. and you know, that's not always easy, but that it that sounds like it's really important. So in your book, I want to know what else what else you explore, because I think
This was a b longer project for you, is that right? Like you wrote it over many years. So tell us about that process.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (24:32)
Yeah, I've been yeah, I've been writing
it, I've been writing it for the last 10 years, actually. it's taking me that long to finish it. why? Because I've basically been living my book. That's what I've been doing. I've been going through all the mo all the emotions, all the motions, all the feelings, and actually putting that down on paper. because
Mickelle (24:38)
Amazing.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (24:54)
A lot of the book is about the comparison between my relationship with my parents versus my relationship with my children. So that was very therapeutic and emotional at the same time. That's why it's taken me so long to write the book, to get it right, to be able to put those feelings into words and onto the page. it's I I wanted to say that there's a vulnerability in writing memoir, memoir.
It's ⁓ publishing personal stories means allowing strangers to see parts of your inner world that were once private.
Mickelle (25:20)
Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (25:29)
So that's why it's taken me so long to do this. And that's why I'm excited about the book coming out on the 6th of June. I can't wait for other people to read it, but I'm also incredibly nervous. and
Mickelle (25:42)
Yeah. But
also there's something else in there. Sorry to interrupt you, but it's not just your story. A woman's story is never just her story. This is not this is the story of your four children. This is the story of your parents. This is the story of so and again, a man's story is never his story either, but there's always a quest and it's just them and they're the main character. And but a woman's story, what even if they're the main character, it's not just their story, especially when you're talking telling it the way you are. And so that's it's quite a bit of
Sam Frearson-Tubito (25:50)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mickelle (26:12)
Not pr just pressure, but like that's what, seven different perspectives that you're trying to channel.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (26:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So in August last year, when I come to my to the final draft as of well, the first final draft that I was happy with, I sent it to my four children and my father. not my mother, because my mother unfortunately is very, very unwell and has been unwell since twenty twenty one, suffering from dementia. but the five main characters, other than myself, read it in August.
and I wanted to send it to them and I wanted them to tell me what they thought and if it was okay for me to be writing what I'm writing. And it was just incredibly interesting the feedback I got. ⁓ sorry, and my husband, I forgot about him. he's a main character too. So forth. Sorry.
Mickelle (26:55)
Mm.
Of course. It was just it was just
assumed. It was just assumed.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (27:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So four kids, one husband and one father. So they all they all came back with their little comments. And it was it was actually quite amazing to hear that they were all very happy with what I've written. I mean, apart from a couple of things. my my number three, he was like, You're not putting that in the book. That was okay. Some little of course.
Mickelle (27:23)
And you respected it. Yeah. That's a big decision,
right? Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (27:26)
Absolutely. Yeah, little dalliance
that he did when he was in his late teens. Okay, fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mickelle (27:33)
Not going in. Yeah, I mean,
as you know, I wrote a Ted Ted talk with my husband about our financial lives. And that was quite confronting. to talk about how we transitioned out of this this anyway, but I find it very difficult in general. So that's that's why this is a selfish question I'm asking 'cause
Sam Frearson-Tubito (27:42)
Yeah, I can imagine. Mm.
I I ha
I do talk a lot about, you know, my relationship with Paolo. it has defin it is a good relationship, but we've definitely had our ups and downs and we still do like any relationship. So it's a very honest account of what happens. I mean, especially at the begin during the pandemic, for example, we were actually separated because he had started a job in Modena in Italy.
when we were still in the US. And we were gonna go and join him, but we couldn't because we because there was a pandemic. We couldn't travel. So we were separated for six months. And that was that was very, very hard. Very, very difficult. especially the reunion. The reunion was difficult.
Mickelle (28:32)
When you say Yeah, when you say separated I I thought you were
separated, like not married or like considering
Sam Frearson-Tubito (28:39)
no, no, no,
as in separated geographically. Yeah. We he was in Italy, I was in the US. ⁓ so I was, yeah. I was in the US looking after the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was looking in the US looking after the kids, selling the house, selling it, because we were moving. I was doing all of that, and he was on his own in Moderna in Italy, and we all know those stories about how awful it was. and
Mickelle (28:42)
Got it.
Right. And No, I'm sorry. And you were saying about the reunion.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (29:06)
It was the reunion that was the hard thing because he had had six months of being completely alone, and I'd had six months of basically doing everything that needed to be done on my own, even though I had four children with me. I was still dealing with a lot on my own. and
I I I talk about it, I I write about it in the book. I write about the feelings, about the the difficulties that, you know, a couple can have when you're both coming from completely different realities and you have to try and find that common ground again. How do you do that? Anyway, I'm not gonna yeah, the spoiler yeah, no spoiler alerts here. You have to read the book. ⁓
Mickelle (29:48)
Yeah. Read the book. But I think that's a
skill that's actually more and and everyone who did wherever you did the pandemic, that you did have a different experience. Like I we don't I don't share the same pandemic that my sister did in Utah. Like there's just no we don't have that experience together. And as a couple, I mean, that's that's normal. Like n nobody's having the same experience. So learning that skill, but it's not like you were planning on that. Like there this wasn't a choice. This was kind of a
Sam Frearson-Tubito (29:58)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Mickelle (30:18)
And so that skill of being able to cross that chasm is a super important one. And it sounds like it came in handy. All of your honest conversations over the years might have come in handy. So sometimes this life skill can come in handy, or this relational skill. ⁓ yeah, I love how honest you are about it. And that's just it's I I see it as wisdom. And with people moving abroad very thinking it's going to be an adventure, and it is.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (30:24)
Hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
Mickelle (30:45)
And thinking it's gonna be beautiful, and it is. I love that there there's this canon of wisdom that's forming. And these are the people I'm talking to, and of course you're one of them twice now. I'm so lucky. but I really think the wisdom, and and you've kind of done this because this is a generational thing for you, and on your blog and your substack. Do you see it as weaving wisdom? Do you is that you're passing along a heritage of sorts? Is that
Sam Frearson-Tubito (31:08)
I mean, thank you. I just see it as, you know, giving as much advice as I can possibly give to other people who have chosen this way of life or are thinking about choosing this kind of life. That it's not, yes, it is about adventure. Yes, it is about learning new languages and
Mickelle (31:10)
You're welcome.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (31:27)
being open-minded and seeing the world, absolutely. But it's also about learning how to live between in in in the in-between. It's learning how to live in the in-between. which isn't which isn't easy. it's also a great gift that you can to be able to walk into a room and be able to talk to whoever
is there and have a great conversation, you know, great conversation starters. it's but
Mickelle (31:54)
What's your top what's your what's your top like skill set or
if you're in the in between in any way, in in a relationship between countries, between becoming a parent, like there that is there's so many in-betweens. So what is your top advice?
Sam Frearson-Tubito (32:08)
my top advice is to my god, that's a difficult one to answer Off the top of my head.
Mickelle (32:15)
Well how
how do you approach it?
Sam Frearson-Tubito (32:17)
Just be your true self, be who you are, be honest with yourself, but also with the person in front of you, with your situation, with the situation that you're going into. If you're going into a country that that that is a different that they where they speak a different language, actually you must try and learn at least 10 sentences.
Mickelle (32:17)
What is your mi what is your
Sam Frearson-Tubito (32:42)
In that language before you move. At least. I call it just survival, survival, survival questions, survival, you know, where you're from. can you help me please? where can I find a taxi? You know, that kind of thing, or how much does this cost? Little things like that. Super so that you can you don't feel like a complete outsider the minute you walk, you, you move.
Just it just it yeah, so that you ease yourself into it. you can help yourself in so many different ways.
Mickelle (33:10)
Yeah, so know the language.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (33:12)
Yeah. Know the language. Well, try. Yeah.
Mickelle (33:14)
Be honest. Yeah.
Well, and I guess that's so I'm translating this to other transitions that people might be going through, maybe into parenthood. So we always talk about on this podcast about how living abroad is an additional life stage. And every country you go to is a new chapter. And so parenthood's a chapter, a relationship's a chapter. Maybe if you get a divorce, it's a chapter, a new relationship. So know the know the language for me translates to like when you're having a baby, you learn all a little bit about parenting, about
Sam Frearson-Tubito (33:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (33:43)
baby stuff about whatever. And so it's it's learn the language of what you're walking into is a really good advice.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (33:49)
Yeah, well
or or do your homework.
Mickelle (33:52)
Yeah, do your homework. And then another one that I c go ahead.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (33:53)
Yeah. I mean I I moved to
when I moved to the US from Japan, neither Palo and I wanted to move to the US. We were very happy where we were, but because of the job we had to move. And we thought well, I thought, gosh, I don't need to do any homework because I know the language, I know the culture from from the TV, from movies. what else is there to know?
Mickelle (34:12)
T V. Yep.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (34:16)
And you know what? It was the hardest place that I've I've ever had to move to because I didn't do my homework. I didn't do my due diligen, didn't give it my due diligence beforehand. You have to respect this move, respect it. This is the thing. Yeah, as you said, if you're moving into parenthood, you're moving into marriage, you just have to do your homework beforehand. So you're not just it's less traumatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Mickelle (34:35)
Yep. It's better too. It's less traumatic. Yeah. And then
I would say, yeah, there's there's a bunch more, like be excited. ⁓ yeah, but I want to talk about honesty a little bit with you because I think you can hang with this. I try and so my kids have grown up mostly Dutch in the Dutch culture. They're from the US. And we talk about honesty a whole bunch because as you know from living here, there's a different level of candor. ⁓
Sam Frearson-Tubito (34:45)
Hm, yeah.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mickelle (35:05)
So when you say be honest, w again, these conversations you're having with Paulo and with yourself, how I think that forms differently when you live abroad. And so maybe you can talk a little bit about that. How you talk to your kids about honesty, cultural honesty, being cultural about honesty, and with yourself, how did you help them develop that honesty?
Sam Frearson-Tubito (35:22)
I think it's it it boils down to respect, respect for yourself, respect for the other person, the other country, the other culture. That's what I mean by being honest. I mean you were just saying about how in in Holland they are particularly direct. ⁓ that can be interpreted as maybe too honest or whatever. That's not what I mean. I mean just
Mickelle (35:41)
Mm.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (35:47)
Yeah, learn to learn to read the room, give it some time, and then be honest with yourself and honest with the environment around you. I mean, it's and again, do your homework. So it it it it it's all it all comes together quite nicely. That that that's what I mean by yeah, being honest, doing your homework, reading the room, be respectful.
Mickelle (36:09)
Yeah. It strikes me that you're it's like diplomat training.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (36:14)
maybe, yeah. I am pretty diplomatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny.
Mickelle (36:15)
Yeah. Yeah. But it that's like I I feel like that's like how to be a diplomat. so then the next question becomes
the layers of honesty and then which identity you're bringing or which part of your identity. And that's this getting back to belonging, getting back to who you are. And you said Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (36:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, actually that is a it's a good that's
a good thing that you're bringing up because third culture kids are very good at adapting, incredibly good at adapting, and incredibly good at changing their identity to suit the environment, to suit the actual moment in itself. Because you just want to feel comfortable. This is what happens with third culture kids, is that they've been moved from one place to another and they have felt they know that being uncomfortable
Mickelle (36:51)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (37:04)
Is not a nice feeling. So how do you change that? Well, you change yourself, you adapt. You don't necessarily change yourself into a completely different person, but what you do is you kind of mirror what you're what you're what you're seeing. Whether that's a person, whether that's a culture, whether that's whatever. that's what a third culture kid does, what a diplomat does, what a person who would like to integrate well.
Mickelle (37:27)
Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (37:31)
That's what they do. When you want to integrate well somewhere where you want to feel like you belong, that's what you do.
Mickelle (37:39)
Yeah. And in your blog, your recent posts have been kind of towards like people pleasing, legitimacy, and again, also into midlife, how maybe you're questioning some of these and that's what it comes to me. And so this book might be part of that larger conversation of like that transition into again, who am I really? who is the diplomat? Who is the
Sam Frearson-Tubito (37:45)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
It does
absolutely you can get lost. I feel like I feel I feel like I have lost myself a little bit along the way and I'm beginning to realise that and trying I'm trying to figure it out. I mean the book is not like okay, this is me and it it doesn't sort of like wrap up nicely at the end and ta-da.
Mickelle (38:08)
Mm.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (38:19)
I've sorted everything out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've sorted everything out. This is great. No, no, no. This is this is just a moment, well, a lot of moments in my life, leading up to the point where I realize that really home is something that you carry within yourself. How how does that translate? How does that look like in real life? is hard. There are moments of joy, of incredible joy, and there are moments of incredibly incredible sadness. And
Mickelle (38:20)
Right off into the sunset. Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (38:46)
I think that's just real life in itself. and yeah, and it's it's how you navigate that, how you navigate those high joys, those deep sorrows, by being your honest self, by being kind to yourself, and by trying to read the room and trying to understand the whys and the hows. And sometimes you don't understand those things, but really I think the
Mickelle (38:48)
It is. It is. Nobody wants to talk about it, but that's just life.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (39:11)
the ultimate realization is, you know what, I'm happy within myself. This is who I am. And if the situation around me isn't working out, then
That's okay. I'm feeling okay being uncomfortable. ⁓
Mickelle (39:25)
Yeah.
like that's the transition, right? So people pleasing, all this stuff, being a diplomat, like that's super, super, super useful. And then it hits its limit. And then that's kind of it seems like where you're going. But now that you're not being moved by do you think that that's able to come out a bit more? Probably because of your new transition into a new phase, but also not being moved against your will by a country by a company.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (39:30)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. I think. Yeah, yeah. I know what you see. I know what you're saying. Okay. For me, my comfort zone was moving from one place to another because that's what I've always known. Yeah. Now I'm not in my comfort zone. I mean, yes, I have chosen it. I have chosen with my husband to stay. But am I comfortable with that? Well, this is a brand new life for me. I don't go into this in the book because the book stops when I
Mickelle (39:53)
N not against your will. I know you're up for it, but like
Yes.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (40:21)
arrive in Modena and I've chosen to stay. That's when it finishes. So this is actually a new a new stage of my life. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mickelle (40:28)
New realization. This is a new book. So it starts at the wedding with with your new home. Just like all great love stories, it starts it ends at the wedding and happily ever after, but that's not we know that's not what really happens. So your new book, just kidding, in five, ten more years I'll have you on and we'll talk about your
new book about staying or not.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (40:45)
I hope it's not
gonna take ten years. I am actually writing a new book, but it's it's it's not about my life. It's about actually my my mother's life, my mother's life and her her family. Because like I said, I come from a very nomadic family, and her family is from Gibraltar, Spain, and Portugal. So very, very, very different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mickelle (41:08)
Well, Sam, we need to wrap up because I want to be mindful of your time. But I have thank you for being a wisdom keeper. Thank you for being a wisdom spinner. And this book I know will be helpful for anyone who's navigating this and asking these big questions. I want to tell people how they can find you if they want to read more.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (41:10)
Okay.
Ha
⁓
Yeah, so you can find me on wanderingidentity.com. You can find me on Instagram under that same name. You can also find me on Substack. And don't forget that on the 6th of June, beneath a bored sky, a woman's search for the true meaning of home will be out. So watch out for it.
Mickelle (41:42)
And they can buy it
anywhere, Amazon and any country.
Sam Frearson-Tubito (41:45)
Yes, Amazon in any country. Yeah.
Mickelle (41:48)
Great. Thank you so much for
joining us. And thank you everyone for joining the House of Peregrine podcast. Please feel free to let us know what you think about this interview. Please share and like this episode if you think it might help someone and comment. We listen and respond to everything you write to us and we love hearing what you want to see more of. Thanks for joining us see you next time.