Visibility Without Losing Your Soul Abroad with Claire Naughton

Transcript • August 12, 2026

Claire (00:00)
it is really, really hard not to compare yourself to other people when you're building. And again, that is human gospel, that is existing gospel. But when you're doing it in a foreign country, there are so many other invasive mental measuring sticks that come in. you're not just building a business, you're trying to learn the language, maybe make

friends with your partner's colleagues or their friend group or maybe neither of you know anybody and you're trying to make friends. Like there are all these things that go into building a business that don't feel or you don't expect them to be part of building a business. And so I think my biggest advice is to really kind of go inward and try to find your gut, your sense of intuition and remind yourself that it's there when it doesn't feel like it's there

Mickelle (01:24)
everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine Podcast. I'm your host, Mickelle Weber, and today my guest is Claire Naughton, a self-described freestyling marketer who helps expat service business owners with marketing that actually feels human, writing that sounds like you, and strategy that doesn't flatten your personality. And finally, with community built on real connection.

not just growth. Claire's originally from the Chicago area and her path to France was anything but straight. She wound through New Zealand and South America before landing there in 2018. This September marks her eight-year France adversary, which she says she still hasn't decided whether to celebrate or mourn. If you've ever hit one of these expat milestones and felt proud and tender at the very same time, you already get why I wanted to have her on the show. This conversation isn't really just about marketing.

It's about what happens when you try to build something, a business, a community, a sense of belonging, while you're also adapting to a new culture, a new language, a new rhythm, and a new version of yourself. If you're abroad and trying to put words to what you do, if you're a service-based business owner trying to be visible without losing your soul, or if you're simply in a season of asking, what am I creating here and why does it feel so layered? This one's for you. Claire, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here today.

Claire (02:39)
Hi Mickelle, pleasure to be here.

Mickelle (02:40)
I wanted to start out, tell us about your journey to living in France for eight years, 'cause it's kind of a long stint eight years, but before that it was a little bit more transient, it sounds like. So tell us tell us that story before we get all the way into what you're up to.

Claire (02:54)
Yeah, so I think people are always surprised when I don't have a story that starts with I always knew I wanted to live in France because something that's really common in in the expat community here is you find people who have studied France, they've studied abroad, they met a Frenchman and they l it was fine because they always loved France. Sometimes a French woman, very often a Frenchman.

but for me it was more of like I loved traveling. And so right after graduation, like finishing my bachelor's back in the day, I went to South America and I met a wonderful French man, but a young French man at the time. We were both very green, you could say, and we just were having the best time volunteering at an international organization that volunteered to help local Arequipaños outside of Arequipa with English.

Language skills after school. So they were in an area where they weren't really getting a great English language education. And the it was, you know, kind of in their best interest to offer them both supplementary English education and give them something to do after school. And so we were actually one part of an arm of an organization that was also offering, you know, it's like small business coaching to their parents and health services and psychological services. And so I like to say we were we were in the shamelessly fun branch because we weren't qualified to do anything else.

And so that's where I met my my now husband. and we only overlapped there for a few months each because we were at different points in our in our volunteering at that point. And then after we left that organization, which was called Helping Overcome Obstacles, Peru hoop, we both went our separate ways and stayed in touch on WhatsApp. But for me that meant going to Argentina. For him, that meant actually going back to Brest in France, where he was finishing his engineering degree. And still at this point.

just very friendly, you know, and had a great time together, but didn't really have any grand plan. Again, we were really young. I was twenty two at that point and he was twenty-one. And so finished my South America chapter as I refer to it, because it was very freewheeling after that. You know, like the the hoop experience was the most grounding element. But I after that I backracked around Argentina a bit and did a stint on an instancia in Patagonia and then went home and was like, what do I want to do with my life? And

took about two or three months to be like, I don't think I really want to figure that out in the US. I just, you know, kind of looked around and saw what people were doing or what they were talking about doing. And I was like, well, a master's degree sounds really expensive if you don't really know like what you're gonna do afterwards. And I wasn't, it's a different now because I consider myself much more c career oriented, but at the time I really wasn't. And so I was kind of like, I just don't want to do anything that's gonna put me in a financial situation. I'll regret later and then have to climb out of.

So I decided to become an au pair in France, because at that point the one thing that I was really familiar with and comfortable with and felt like maybe instinctively it would be worthwhile to pursue was this kind of soft skill, we can call it, of taking risks and seeing what happens and putting yourself in new situations. and people ask, like, well, why Paris? And so part of the reason was that I was still talking to to Thibault, the boy that I met in Peru. He was starting a master's in Strasbourg.

Though. So Strasbourg is right on the border with Germany, two hours east of Paris. And the other part of the Paris lure was I had been one time before, so it wasn't entirely foreign. You know, I'd gone for a very short stint when I was a teenager. So chose Paris, became an au pair there, had an amazing experience, challenging, beautiful three kids, heart of Paris, really dynamic family, and then moved over to Strasbourg the

year because pretty much right after I arrived, we started dating, and it's kind of one of those things like it just happened like that. Exactly. Yeah. So and then I think I skipped over the New Zealand chapter. The New Zealand part is just I think maybe worth mentioning because I did a study abroad, and so I can't, whether it's in college or at any point in your life, I can't emphasize how great.

Mickelle (06:33)
The rest is history. Yeah.

Claire (06:52)
of an opportunity is to be able to give yourself time to just travel and think and reflect and going really. Yeah, think yeah, think about finding yourself, right? So I think and I just wanted to touch on that really quickly before circling back to France because I'm really glad I went so far away. And now that I'm in France, and I know we'll get to like having been here now for eight years and not having really planned that out, making big moves like that sound like

Mickelle (06:58)
Find yourself.

Claire (07:19)
literally physically, geographically far away, that sounds in a lot different and carries a much different emotional tenor now than it did when I was, you know, twenty or twenty one or whenever I did that. So yeah, very roundabout with a little a New Zealand introduction. But yeah, I moved over to Strasbourg in twenty nineteen and have been here

Pretty exclusively since then. We did do a very short stint in Montpellier, for his PhD. I had to go down there for part of his program, but at that point I was freelancing, so it was totally doable.

Mickelle (07:51)
Yeah, nice. Our listeners know that my husband and I have been married since I was twenty. So we but we were kind of digital nomads before it was a thing. and so we traveled around. We I was working in advertising and so it is a different life and you have different we found ourselves together in a way, I guess, but it was a it's a definitely a different thing. And now my kids talk about, we want to move to Tokyo, and I'm like, guys.

I know we brought you here as toddlers with a month's notice, but not sure mom's re up for that. Yeah. You know, again, it's a really big it's a bigger deal. But it's also, yeah, like you said, a different emotional tenor. Such a great way of putting it. I love that. okay, so eight years in September. Tell me about not wanting to s not knowing whether to celebrate or mourn it. That's speaking of a different emotional tenor.

Claire (08:23)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that goes back to what I first said about like n you know, France was never the end goal and like staying here became part of a goal that was part of the larger objective of of building a life with my now husband. And it I actually just had this conversation with a friend.

literally last night we were trying to parse through it because she's in a similar situation and she's one of the first American women that I've met here in a similar situation where we're both very aware of how fortunate we are to be in a small, mid-size, Thai human, as the French describe, a human-sized city. you know, Paris is obviously well known for all of the reasons, but Strasbourg is really quickly getting up on people's radar. And so it's a really tricky time to be

anything but grateful for where you live because you know we got here before everybody else discovered it and it feels great and yada yada. But integrating in France is really difficult. it's a the French have a culture where there's not like a I've made it moment where you can internally celebrate because you feel accepted and like one of them. There's more of just like quiet sense of they're not judging me as intensely because I finally figured out

Mickelle (09:57)
Ha ha ha.

Claire (09:58)
I've finally figured out their social codes and it's not personal. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So and I try to say that in as like neutral of a way as possible because I think my specific personality, but also Americans, like we take things really serious, like personally sometimes. Like tone matters a lot. And we always we never want to think that anybody's upset with us or feeling any sort of negative emotion. And I feel like there's just a fundamental disconnect in a lot of ways because the French go through generally just at

Mickelle (10:01)
The side eye calms down.

Yeah.

Claire (10:27)
operating at a different frequency to use another analogy. this may be that's maybe just a bit more correct. You know, like again, I don't want to put any cultural judgments into it, but being here for eight years.

Mickelle (10:37)
No, but there is, yeah, I always say there's a cult in every

culture, and then there's a frequency of every culture, and every language resonates differently in your body and your mouth. and so I love that you've said that because that is something that's really important for people who may be thinking of moving. It's not just you picking up you and moving. It's not going to be the same. You're not going to be the same. That's what we talk about a lot here. But also that level of acceptance may never happen.

Claire (10:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (11:06)
happen. And that's what House of Peregrine kind of talks about a little bit is full acceptance. You're never going to be probably French, right? You are French. You have a passport probably even, but you're American French French. yeah. Yeah, of course. There's drama. But that's you become other in every way. And any kids you have become kind of other. And that's a story as old as time. But I I mean for instance, like I knew I was

Claire (11:17)
Actually don't yet. We can talk we can talk about that. There's there's drama, there's tea

Mickelle (11:33)
being a little bit accepted when they started complaining at me here and like telling me I was doing things wrong. I'm like, you know, nitpicking about the garbage or whatever. I'm like, and then, you know, slowly complaining that I don't speak Dutch. It's like, we want to but I was taking it as like an insult, like you said. And so these are small things that you notice, but is there an end point? And that's maybe what you're speaking to. Will I ever fully belong here? Will I

Claire (11:52)
Interesting.

Mickelle (12:01)
fully be accepted as French, and often the answer is no.

Claire (12:05)
Yeah. And also kind of to add to that, like realizing that what I would consider feeling belonging as somebody who's still American, you know, like I've lost slash a lot has evolved, I think, about my Americanness just because of how long I've been here now. And also I think it does some crazy things to your psychology when you move really, really young and to kind of figure everything out as a young adult abroad. Yeah, it's really formative.

Mickelle (12:26)
Yeah.

It forms you. It really does. Yeah.

Claire (12:32)
but yeah, part of what you said was really striking because I think like part of feeling like I belong, you can belong in the sense that you've been as accepted as you will be to a degree, and just feel like maybe if I live somewhere else, I would feel better about how I belong here. Like that's kind of what goes through my mind with France a lot of the time, and why I kind of am like that use that expression of I don't know whether to mourn or celebrate, because I do know to.

To your point, I am not French yet. I don't have the nationality. I'm a little bit miffed with immigration at the moment because they didn't give me as many years on my renewal as I had asked for after all these years. Yeah. and their immigration in general is cracking down, but slightly different topic. So, yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's not just France, it's not just me, all these things, but wrapped up, yeah, yeah, exactly. Totally, totally so wrapped up in that is like.

Mickelle (13:12)
Yeah, everywhere. Yeah, everywhere.

It's still you though. It's still happening. It still affects your life. Yeah.

Claire (13:26)
You know, I think I belong as much as I ever will on the good days here and on the cranky days. I'm like, what would it be like to move somewhere where I have more options in terms or I what where to find more optionality if I feel like that's missing the men.

Mickelle (13:42)
Yeah. And what people report when they do move back home, for instance, not that that's what you're suggesting, is they actually don't belong there anymore either. And so the risk the Yeah. Yeah, so reintegration can be tricky and you're just changed. And so that's I mean, again, that's what we talk about on this podcast a lot because peregrine means outsider. So peregrines can live on e any continent of the world, but the word means outsider. And so they're endlessly adaptable, they're endlessly

Claire (13:50)
Mm-hmm. I've heard this. The tricky, like reverse culture shock, right?

Mickelle (14:12)
you know, survive they can survive, they can thrive, they're the fastest bird on the planet, but they're an outsider. The the word means outsider. Yeah. So yeah, go ahead.

Claire (14:19)
Actu I should was like

No, just I was gonna observe I love peregrine because I loved animals when I was little and so I randomly know that like the maximum speed of peregrines when they're diving is like sixty or sixty two miles an hour. Is that it? Like they're in they're insane. Yeah, so I had just a little human little girl spark of joy reading the the title of your podcast or your company because I was like, that's a great name.

Mickelle (14:36)
I think so.

Yeah, good. I'm glad you like it. So that's you're grappling with that, which I I is why I wanted to ask the question. And this, sometimes I think I've broken my kids, you know, I've broken their childhood. Like they're there can be a lot of feelings, right? 'Cause they're never gonna belong anywhere. That was not in my awareness. I was like, we'll just go abroad, it'll be great, we'll move, we'll go for a year or two. And, you know, we have three kids who speak Dutch fluently because they came here as toddlers and they still are not

You know, they still don't feel like they fully belong as, you know, in in this in any cultures like this, even in the US, right? So, so there's a lot of guilt that comes along, can come along with the amazing parts of this journey. So yeah, thanks for thanks for speaking to it a little bit. so tell me I wanna move into the work you're doing and why. I love this freestyling marketer.

Tell me what freestyling means in your in practice. What what does that mean for you? And are you redefining marketing a little bit for international people?

Claire (15:50)
Big question. Okay. So the freestyling is an inside joke with myself and now your audience because my husband, when we met in Peru, his English wasn't this maybe a B one speaking. He would get a little annoyed if I said that, but he would use the word freestyling very often to describe just kind of trying to figure it out, it'll work out, we're in this together. You know, it became this word. And so I

adopted it and started using it in my own English language. And I actually found that it's the best way to describe the marketing that I do because so often the founders that I connect with now, and especially when I started out when I was a baby freelancer, just kind of trying to be like, how am I gonna earn a living in this country? You know, like the people you connect with tend to be the ones that are both, I'll take what I can get people in both the good and the bad sense of that phrasing.

And they are genuinely just trying to grow and scale as quickly as possible. And you kind of do need to understand how to become what they need and deliver and you know, later on maybe how to have those conversations of like, well, you know, I don't know if this is, you know, this role is serving me or if my marketing is serving you ultimately. But I think the freestyling encapsulates that evolution, right? That like sense that you can come together and you can make something really beautiful temporarily, or you can have like

There is longevity to it, but you don't necessarily always know where it's going. And I think that that holds true whether you're a freelancer starting out, you're a freelancer in your career trying to pivot and lean into something. And then on the founder side, like my goodness, all the founders I worked with who had these big ideas and a lot of them suck it out and are doing great things, but just the evolutions that happen as you're building your business, I think just freestyling to me is the best way to kind of be like, I clocked you, like I'm here, I got you, I'll match your rhythm, we'll be okay.

Mickelle (17:34)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a really it's like collaborating but with the known impermanence.

Claire (17:42)
Exactly. Yes. Great phrasing.

Mickelle (17:43)
Which I think is a lot

of international life in general, is you have a a heightened sense of the impermanence. and so sometimes that gives at least me, I've been here almost 10 years. I've had three sets of friends, right? And all of them have moved on, and I've been the one that stayed. And it's the same with business. And so that's actually a little bit why we do House of Peregrine the way we do, is because of that known impermanence. Because for you, someone like you, you're in

Claire (17:46)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Mickelle (18:12)
country of your spouse, which is its own complexity. someone like me, neither one of us are Dutch. We're both American. So we have a permanent sense of impermanence here. Not only that, it's actually real. Like they changed our visa midway. Like so even though yeah, so that we came on an eight-year visa and they suddenly changed it to five, which was random. And now we've gotten off that visa, but it was you realize the impermanence and you're at the mercy of more forces.

So as a founder, both my husband and I are founders, startup founders, there's that impermanence. There's the impermanence of your network. And then just acknowledging and almost like I I feel in your word like you're celebrating it. You're making it playful, which I really like.

Claire (18:57)
Yeah, I think that's

the only that's the only way you can because the the other side of freelancing, you know, there's freelancing and there's contracting, there's self employed, there's all these different words that describe those of us that had to build careers when we didn't have, you know, like a corporate escapee background to fall on or something like that. Background to fall back on, excuse me. and I think they're

are ways to look at it that are a little bit more dark and challenging and make things harder to process. And, you know, I've definitely had those moments. But I think you can also choose to say, okay, I'm I'm going to make this experience as chaotic and crazy and maybe a little bit stressful sometimes as it can be. Like it can also be playful. And there's a lot to be said for the relationship, the type of relationships you can build with that approach as well. Right. Like not every person that you work with is going to be forever. Not every client that finds you,

And so I think with that mindset and approach, just everybody ends up happier long term, even if, you know, expectations are being managed, scopes are being adjusted, all of these things are happening, you know, it just forms like a a more resilient foundation for those relationships, I would say.

Mickelle (20:04)
Yeah. And it again acknowledges that impermanence a little bit and l just plays with it. Like I always think of it as like whenever I I meet a friend and I start going deep with them and I know they're from another country, I always have to stop myself from this. And again, this isn't work relationships too. I work with mostly freelancers for House of Peregrine, but it's almost like I'm enjoying this so much I want it to last forever. And it's like, no, enjoy it while it lasts, maximize it while it lasts. yeah.

And so there's another approach of that impermanence that I really I try and live into and I love that you're you're speaking to it here. So that's really love. I love that. So tell me, you must so you said you weren't when you're a baby marketer. I like that. but it seems like you've evolved into something that's I mean, marketing is such a big word. And when I was coming through, I worked in advertising for years. marketing was a more of a stiff and kind of boxed,

Claire (20:42)
Mm.

Mickelle (20:55)
thing even though it was it was like the creative part of the organization, if you will. ⁓ but you've brought that to more of a human like voice. Tell me, was that a is that just who you are or is that kind of a a value of yours or is do you think it's intentional?

Claire (21:00)
Mm-hmm.

you for the kind framing. I am always very transparent that I don't have any formal

marketing, business, even communications like background. Like I studied English literature with an emphasis in creative writing at a really nice school for that in the US, you know, liberal arts, you know, lots of thinking, lots of writing. Thank the Lord, Chat GPT wasn't around back then, you know, like, and I really do credit, I another way I describe besides freestyle marketing, the type of marketing that I do is writing-based marketing. and to your point, I think one of the reasons I ended up studying, literally writing and reading about writing, right? Is

Because marketing didn't appeal to me as it was presented back then. So to you, as you said, it is a very historically a box, like, the marketing person just get them in and they'll get XYZ done. It's very task-based. and then it evolved to be like very automation-based and managing almost like marketing operations and that sort of thing. And one, I don't want to do that. Two, you don't want me to do that. My brain is not made for that kind of organization. it's made to observe and

make take note when those organizations are in place, but I don't do it, I don't want to do it, and more importantly, you don't want to pay me to do it because it's a waste of your money. however, I will always advocate for making sure that there's a technical marketer or somebody that understands the more technical side of things if you know that background is is warranted. But to that note, I think a lot of the marketing that the founders that I've encountered and worked with since moving abroad need.

tends to be writing-based marketing, you know, like how can I get myself in front of people and all of the ways that people are marketing themselves has have evolved because of social media and because of how ravenous the algorithm is, and then trying to stay keep you humanity through that, whether we're talking about the social media algorithm, which I don't actually personally work that much in, or the Google algorithm. And all of those updates and things that affect SEO that I did do a lot of work in and I still do a bit of, but

I'm moving more into like, you know, ghostwriting and thought leadership and that sort of thing on LinkedIn, which I've been really enjoying recently. And especially now with AI, I will die on this hill if you don't have a strong sense of who you are in writing, either created by yourself or in collaboration with a writer that is original.

You don't have a strong marketing foundation, especially because the marketers and people that you will connect with will steer you towards AI, or you yourself will be motivated to go towards AI because it's very human to want to expedite things, streamline things, make things efficient. It's like, you know, crack for our little American brains. It's like that's what we want. And I am not anti-the use of AI, but I really firmly stand by you will not have an original platform if you don't have original things to feed your AI.

And so that's kind of where the human and like my personal take and the writing comes into it because I do use AI a lot. I have also invested in the mountain of work that goes into understanding myself, how I work, who my clients are, what they do, who they serve, all those things, like the grunt work of the writing. And then

We introduce AI strategically so that we're making sure that, you know, I'm not getting overexcited and posting too many things about, you know, one type of thing. Like it's it's there as a as a guardrail kind of to make sure that I am minding my organization, for example. Because as I mentioned, you don't want me doing your operations because I am not technically organized. I don't live happily in these spaces. I can, but I can use AI for that. And in no

position, does that challenge or is there any friction between the writing work that I do? If a founder or somebody that wants to work with me sees value in that. If they don't, that's okay. That just means that, you know, going back to the freestyling, that just means we're probably not gonna be a long term fit and that's fine.

Mickelle (25:05)
Yeah. And that's I think there's two ways when when you say visibility without losing your soul. I think the a using AI, 'cause it's like garbage in, garbage out, right? Beautiful stuff in, beautiful stuff out. that's kind of and the AI is usually a mirror for whatever you know about yourself or your brand or your self as a founder. but there's another thing that you're talking about, which is marketing speak, which I get actually as a founder get a lot of

I I I don't fight with a lot of people when they're working with me, but I'm always challenging them. because there are beats. There are beats that you need to hit that make it so people understand your message, right? That that there is a marketing rhythm we're all used to, right? And and gets your message across. But for someone like me who loves words and what loves the right words, that's almost part of my

challenge to the marketing world because again I spent so much time in advertising. I think in I think in campaigns. I think in this. So the structure is there, but I I like to play with that structure and and really challenge it a lot. And so I think that it it leads to some interesting experiments. And so I I really love that your this the word soul is in there because part of that is playing with the paradigm for me of like, marketing speak, great. I know we can say

it very simply and everyone will know what we're talking about. That's great. We do need to do that. But how where does the soul come in? Where does the peregrine ness come in? Where what is peregrine is what we're always asking. Is it peregrine enough? which is a little bit of a obst just a little bit of a mystery. Being being a little bit of a mystery, which is a really fine line to walk. So I love that you're kind of embracing it a little bit, this soul notion.

because marketing runs our world and it's it again, it's a little bit like in society, also marketing crap in, marketing crap out. Like what we surround ourselves with is really important and let's be honest, we're surrounded by marketing all the time. So I see it a little bit as like an environmental issue as well, sensory issue. ⁓ so I like to put things that are nutri nutritious out into the world is what I say.

Claire (27:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or risk to be a

Ooh, nutritious marketing. Lovely.

Mickelle (27:17)
Yeah, sound like a mom, right? Eat your vegetables. No. I'm more like eat a beautiful, beautiful salad that tastes yummy. No. But so I love that you're doing that. And I wonder if that keeps you interested as well, because you seem like a really creative person.

Claire (27:18)
Yeah.

it is important for my brain to feel interested and creative at the same time. Yes. I think I do struggle to articulate what I do sometimes. Somebody recently asked me because they were like, I'm meeting you in this capacity. You know, so I for example I work in partnerships and community and then marketing and communications and it's kind of wherever you want me to go and wherever you trust me to be.

Mickelle (27:34)
Yeah.

Claire (27:54)
I will tell you if I think I can do that. And then I'll also tell you, you know, to what degree it scares me, or I think I'll be out of my comfort zone or whatever it is. And if those two all that is on the table and the other person is like, no, I still feel comfortable moving forward with you doing this for me, I'm like, all right, let's rock and roll, you know? So that's kind of, yeah. Mm-hmm. Very

Mickelle (28:10)
Yeah. And that's that's it's a little bit of a fractional role, which ⁓

is really, really I think a helpful way of framing freelancing for international people is a more fractional approach than freelance, if that makes sense. at least for me, especially because you are making a long term c career sometimes in multiple countries, the fractional approach

because international people are usually so adaptable and have many skills and have out have honed them, is often the way you're approaching it, I see it that's more successful than like having or having one killer skill that you just come in, out, in, out, in, out. And that's also valid, but that's it really is a skill to be able to build a career and have projects across an international life. It just really is.

Claire (28:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (29:01)
And so is that why is that one of the reasons you're so I don't know, is this true you're passionate about helping expat people with their marketing?

Claire (29:10)
Yeah, definitely. I my very I got into freelancing. Like I truly don't know what I would have ended up doing. maybe freelancing, maybe you know, I was at an age where I could have gone back to school here for a French masters, although that comes with complications because they really like it when you have a neat they call it formation. So like when your background makes sense for what you want to do next, even if that is doing a masters. Whereas in the US they're like, if you have some money you can enroll pretty much whatever you want, you know, with some restrictions obviously. and so my very

first freelance role was actually because somebody found me through my Instagram. I have just a for fun handle where I talk about expat life and sometimes post randomly about Strasbourg. Like it there's nothing strategic or anything that

announces myself as a marketer via that channel to be clear. But the woman that I connected with here, she's an American woman and she had formerly had an agency in the US. So she ha was this corporate escape personality, right? And she like a lot of us, had met a handsome Frenchman and moved here. And she was like, you know, I'm getting involved in a new project with another founder here, da da da and we need, you know, somebody who can edit, write, do some social media, you know, kind of

Mickelle (29:51)
It's

Claire (30:17)
maintenance y type task, basically how I how I think of it, or like kind of now I'd be like, the janitor roles. And I said that with love because I still do a lot of these like janitor roles of marketing. And I was like, yeah, sure. just jumped right in. And this was, you know, five, five or six years ago now it would be. And it just turned into something where I was always asking or trying to learn how I could be doing more, how I could be supporting the business. And so I think going

back to your point about, you know, the difference between freelancer versus contractor and all or fractional and all these different words we can use to describe each other. Like I kind of learned that on the go because you don't know that intuitively. And it's almost becomes an intuitive sense of like, how am I gonna present myself depending on who I'm talking to? So I think I've lost the thread of the original Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think I might have lost the thread of the original question. So I'll pass the ball back to you. But you've gotten a lot of wheels turning about

Mickelle (31:04)
Yep. It's a life it's a life skill in general.

Claire (31:14)
The creativity the creativity and the writing and everything that goes into into the work I do.

Mickelle (31:20)
This is what I do. I just start poking your poking at your story until you the wheels start turning. No, but I've been told that a lot. I didn't think of it that way. My life story now I'm looking at it differently, which I really like. ⁓ so I wanna talk about you keep saying this, so I wanna just go back to it. There is a certain I don't wanna say there is a certain profile, but not profile. So when

Claire (31:24)
Until I'm just

Mm, mm. It's a skill. It's a great skill.

Mickelle (31:45)
you say you start you started working with another woman who met a handsome Frenchman and found herself in in France. That's a unique and I like to talk about this a lot because it happens a lot where you're in a partner's home country and not your own. And so that's a it's a unique dynamic. work wise, visa wise, like you're saying, what do you find in common with I mean, it's probably different countries or different things. Like I fell in love with the Dutchman might have a different thing.

fell in love with the Frenchman. what do you see there the commonalities in people who besides being like they love France maybe, but what are are there some possibilities you or some similarities you can point to w for people who this is their story?

Claire (32:26)
For people that have moved to France to our partner, you mean like s kind of a similar through line?

Mickelle (32:29)
Yeah. Yep.

Claire (32:32)
We, I would collectively say we're a very self-deprecating and persevering group of people.

Because, like going back to what I was talking about at the beginning, French culture is really difficult. Whether or not you consciously acknowledge that it's your Americanness that makes it difficult or just being an outsider to French culture that makes it difficult, you have to learn not to take yourself too seriously. And I I know this does hold true, like for any time you're moving out of your home country to a foreign place. Like that is kind of gospel at this point. But I think specifically for France, because

They take it so seriously when you transgress their little social codes and norms. And it is objectively ridiculous to hold foreigners to a standard that you have been indoctrinated with literally since birth by your French parents. ⁓ you have to develop a sense of humor and a sense of self-deprecation of like, well, maybe I'll just never get there. And actually, in so doing, I think that does make you become a little bit more French, if I can say. Again, I don't have the nationality and I don't profess to be like.

Mickelle (33:23)
Yeah.

Claire (33:37)
an expert on someone that studied French culture. I've just, you know, I've only lived it. But that is kind of inherent to Frenchness. This like, you don't stand out, you are self-deprecating. If the spotlight turns on you, you don't shy away because you're shy. You shy away because that's culturally expected. And so yeah, it's kind of all wrapped up again, I would say self-deprecation. And then the perseverant, again part of gospel, I feel like when you move abroad anywhere, but just

remembering why we're here and then also trying to remember that we all made the choice to be here. Nobody is chaining us to our, you know, remote desks or desks in our offices or in our homes, wherever we ended up. And so just persevering through the moments where, you know, maybe you could stand a step back a little bit and be like, well, there is actually a lot to be grateful for about this life. And anywhere that I lived would have difficulties and

Yes, I am romanticizing the difficulties that I would have if I moved back to, you know, in my case, Chicago or something like that. so yeah, I would say. Self self deprecation and perseverance.

Mickelle (34:39)
Yeah. That's

self-deprec all of you know. But I think that I gave a Ted TEDx talk about finances, but what you don't know you don't know what you don't know before you get married. And so I was imagining a world where we were able to forward some of the wisdom of finances for women from when they get married.

And I think this is similar when you fall in love with someone from a different culture, is you actually don't know what you don't know. And so those are some of the things you might be grappling with, or at least I know the people I know are grappling with. It's is romantic and it is beautiful and it is cool. And you don't know what you don't know. You don't know the things you're going to be facing. And there's very little wisdom. No one's pulling you aside and being like, Are you sure you want to marry a French guy? did you think of this? Did you think of visas? Did you think of nobody's doing that?

Claire (35:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (35:28)
And that's I guess that's what I'm doing.

Claire (35:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

it's very niche and very important, I would say, because it's only, yeah, I would say your outreach. And then I've just finally started to notice a tiny bit in Facebook groups now. People, you know, historically when people are like, I met a French person or a Spanish woman or whatever, and I'm gonna I'm just gonna pick up and move. Historically, people would pile in and be like, That's so brave, my god, adventure of a lifetime, da-da-da. And I've kind of clocked it as this thing where like

People tell you your twenties are also like the best years of your life. And now that those are done, I'm like, those were those were awful. Like, what the heck? And so it's kind of the same thing as when you move abroad. Like, not like they were awful, they were bad. It was a terrible time, but they were awfully hard. And I feel like that gets lost when people just kind of stay really high level and are like, the best years your life. And I get the same, it's the I hear the same tone when people talk about moving abroad or doing something for love. They're just like,

my god, amazing, so brave. And it's like, yes. And here are the 700 things that you should also think about if you are truly moving for love of this person. and especially if you haven't visited that country for love of it for an extended period of time, for example, or studied the language for love of the language. You know, like there's a lot, a lot more that goes into moving for love or doing these bold, big, brave, bold things for love than just just the person.

Mickelle (36:31)
Yes.

Claire (36:54)
and I'm finally starting to see a little bit of conversation around that more consistently.

Mickelle (36:58)
Yeah.

Well, it's almost like if you if you marry someone, you marry their family, but if you marry someone from a different country, you also marry their country. And so that is important to know, right? Like i which culture do you want in your life and country do you want in your life? It's an important question and one that I think again, still do it, still have the adventure. Just know what you're getting yourself into a little bit. Have some wisdom around it. And so that's what I'm that's why I came back to that question because I'm always

Claire (37:06)
Hmm. Yes.

Mickelle (37:26)
I d even with my own kids, even with myself. It's like, would I have moved had I known what I know now? Yes. But it probably would have been a little less difficult. And so I know knowing what I know now, I would approach things a little bit differently. And of course that's part of the adventure. No one, you know, all of it's very, very good, but a little bit more wisdom, I think is what I'm trying to in inject into the world around these grand adventures. So

Claire (37:31)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mickelle (37:56)
thanks for sharing that. So when you talk about community, tell me, we talk about community a lot here because it's a word that's overused a lot. And especially in marketing, it's become kind of a I don't know, it's almost like it's value signaling or like it's not always true. So tell me what you mean when like what what does community first marketing actually look like for you?

Claire (38:18)
You're gonna be shocked, Mickelle. It involves a lot of writing. Like really writing. So the community-based marketing that I do, I'm thinking specifically of a founder that I work with, where I work with them on all of their LinkedIn posts, their quarterly newsletter, and it is none of it really follows the conventional rules, right? Like, you know, on LinkedIn, they're like share a case study, share t technical tips, you know, there's these buckets that you can conform to and

You know, we we we feed the algorithm a little bit with that every now and then, but more often than not, the stuff that really resonates when you're trying to build a community, but not make it look like it's a transactional thing because you truly don't want it to be a transactional thing, is putting yourself out there as you are. And I'm intentionally avoiding using the word authentically because I think the moment you try to intentionally be authentic, you've lost that.

And it's really hard because as humans we want to show up and we wanna make sure that we're making that good first impression, and especially when you add the professional element and potential clients are out there. But it's like, no, to me, community is like building your humanness. And in this time when we can't all be face to face all, or being face to face is actually more of like the minority of interactions that we're having. Writing is the way that you can present yourself as you are to people. And I also

I'm a really big fan of the idea of the abundance mindset. Like there is more than enough work to go around. You complain to me when you get poor fit clients. Like I know you don't want every person banging down your door just because they think it's a good idea to work with you. You want them to bane down your door, you open it, and then you're like gesturing them over the threshold, ushering, sorry, my words are mixing, you're making mix on my words, ushering them over the threshold and like feeling like it's gonna be an amazing collaboration together and like.

That happens when somebody feels connected to you because of something that you have created and it doesn't it can stand on its own without you there. So just like the way maybe s in real life you would give it, you know, historically you've, you know, spoken on TEDx stages. You know, like there are ways to get yourself in front of people so that connection happens and people resonate with like you and the physicality of you being somewhere. But since it's not very possible to do that.

the marketing that I do emphasizes on building community through writing based avenues because that's how people still people still connect with writing. And again, going back to AI, like that's increasingly obvious because AI writing is awful and sad and nobody likes it. And everybody is just kind of sadly falling in line and doing it, I think, because they don't know what else to do. And it's the people that are and by extension that makes investing in either working with a writer or doing it yourself feel even scarier, I think.

Because it's like, well, I do have this free resource, and I if I if I just figured out how to use it and like I know I can optimize streamline, I'll insert all the buzzwords. And it's like, no, actually the best way to build community is still just to be yourself, put representations of yourself out into the world. If for some reason something goes horribly wrong, you be a human and you apologize, or you address it, you know, like and actually that's also better than

an AI thing that gets no traction and it's just a waste of everybody's time and killed a polar bear somewhere. You know what I mean?

Mickelle (41:36)
Yep, yeah. I do know and I think you're such wise to say you're avoiding the word authentic because I think that we've we've I mean, cool, go down that. But authentic can mean different like cool, like use a lot of words that shock people or sh overshare about certain things. But what I found at least as a woman and as a mother and as a wife and as a daughter is

My authentic story isn't always just my story. And so as a woman founder, it's been very interesting to navigate what authentic looks like for me. Because even on the TEDx stage, that was our story. Not I wasn't talking about my ex-husband. I was talking about my current husband. I wasn't talking about someone else's finances. I was talking about my finances and conversations that nearly tore our marriage apart, right? So, and my kids were.

Claire (42:15)
You say a little more about that?

Mm.

Mickelle (42:32)
in the front row of that, listening. And so the stories that we almost sometimes need to tell the most, and especially for an authentic business or a service-based business, and maybe this is true of men too, but I think especially for women, they're not always just our story. And so authenticity can look like

It's just a new I feel like women being more in business, more creating things in the spotlight. talking about menopause, for instance. Like a lot of people talking about something that was never talked about before, right? And so yeah, perimenopause, yeah. And so that's just one example of something that's private, but but that's the thing that I've found very, very I don't know, on my own path. It's helped me to clarify what authenticity means in my business. That also

Claire (43:00)
Even perimenopause, I've heard. It's mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mickelle (43:16)
can connect to my personal story, that makes sense in my personal brand.

Claire (43:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, no totally Can I turn the tables real quick and ask you a question that just came to mind? Because it it's in vain with that authenticity. ⁓ there's discussions that I see popping up sometimes that remind me of the authenticity discussion where people are women often are hotly debating whether or not you should show up as your whole self to work. And so that's that's the question. Where how do you think about that question in the context of what we are talking about authenticity?

Mickelle (43:26)
Sure. Yeah.

so how my team and I do it is structurally. And so they know that my priority still is my kids. and so I hire them so that I can spend time with my kids. Like that's literally I'm there, they tell me when to show up. but structures are built. Like I even live in a place where I can be around my kids as much as possible. So I live in the center of the city as a mom of three.

My husband's office is five minute walk that way. My office is a five minute walk that way. and so we've built our entire life. And if my kids walk in during these podcasts, they're here. And so that's one way. but that has been hard won. So it used to be, I mean, I'm older than you, so back when I started working, I had to hide that I was married, had to hide that I so I would appear like a man, right? I would appear as effective and available as a man. And in marketing, sometimes

Claire (44:30)
Mm.

Mickelle (44:35)
in in our stories, I'm really proud of how we've done that. And so it fits into the story very well of entrepreneur being able to live all sides of myself, not at the same time. and so that's how I've approached it and how I've actually built the structure of my business differently. and shout out to ever all my team out there. They know that's my priority and they are actually committed to me being the best mom I can be. And that's part of the ethos ethos of this.

But also it works really well into our community, which is like you don't have full time guys, like you're international people. Like you just don't, especially if you're accompanying someone on a visa. You're handling so we are actually built for people who do not have time to work full time.

Claire (45:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm. Nice.

Mickelle (45:17)
And

so just building it all the way down has been my approach. And then just talking about it, talking about the things I'm proud of.

Claire (45:23)
Nice. Yeah, no, it's it's very thoughtful. And I feel like I he I see a lot of conversations about that too, and where there's a lot of gratitude, I think, to be felt from people that are maybe like a few years behind, as you pointed out. You know, like a lot of what we're able to think about, even conceptualize, is what's possible for structures of our own businesses and how we organize our relationships and things like that. I really do credit.

Mickelle (45:24)
Does that answer your question?

Claire (45:50)
the internet, you know, and social media and just the women that are talking about these things, you know, like I when I first started, and I will say I'll refer to again as freelancing because that's what it was at the time, but

I remember having like a fundamental disagreement with somebody that was a bit like closer to retirement, we'll say. And they were like, as a woman, and they were like, you know, sometimes you just have to X, Y, Z and insert all these things about like, you know, basically just prostrating yourself in front of the client and being willing to make yourself at all times of the day and da-da-da. And just something about that like didn't really click at the time. And now over the course of, you know, these last five or six years where I've seen, I'm like, my gosh, this is why it didn't click.

There was something even then in my brain that was like, well, if I'm choosing to work for myself, why would I?

work with people that no longer make that feel true to me. And I feel like a lot of the conversations that are happening right now are like talking to that literally, right? They're like, if you're choosing to work for yourself and you've decided to do this brave and courageous and risky thing, you deserve A, to pay yourself and B to feel like you're working for yourself. Like you're not an employee, you're not at someone's back and call, you are not somebody's, you know, someone's like a little dog whistle and you're gonna show up in your inbox.

Mickelle (46:48)
Yep. Yep.

Claire (47:13)
like you have your hours and so going back to what you were just saying like it was that was a great and really lovely answer because I do think that you know people like you and the work that you're doing have like contributed in how I structure my business and the boundaries that I set intuitively now you know like it doesn't feel like a stretch to like see an email come in at 9 p.m and be like yes I'll get to that tomorrow you know like if something's on fire something's on fire but guess what when I'm deciding if something's on fire or not not much of

Mickelle (47:44)
Yeah. And that's the difference between being fully employed. And th this goes back to something I always talk about. Like being fully employed has its advantages and disadvantages. And not being fully employed by someone, especially in Europe, has its advantages and disadvantages. And they have to equal out for you. ⁓ and it's the same as being a mom and employed. A friend of mine just accepted a role, she lives in the Netherlands and she works in she just accepted a role in Berlin. She has two small kids.

Claire (48:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (48:13)
And so she's gonna be traveling every week. And I just brought the notion to her. She's like, I need to hire a nanny. My husband, he's also. And I wanted to bring the idea to her, like, you as a mom right now, the your kids need you, which is an advice career woman never would take, right? Like they don't need me, like which is true, like it's totally valid. But I just wanted to turn it on in my head. I'm like, you actually need them too to be your full at your full capacity. So why not bring them with you? Bring the nanny.

Claire (48:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (48:41)
Like have your nervous system as a woman recognized that you have two small kids under two. Like your body recognizes that as a woman and make that part of the the offer. Like make that part of the requirement. Like s some people need a spending account, some to be creative, some people need so it was like almost not not a challenge to her, but she's a change maker as well. So it's like what if you need your kids as much as they need you? You need to be supported, but you need a pieditaire in that city because that's part of who makes

Claire (48:47)
Yeah.

Mickelle (49:11)
makes you good at your job is having your kids near you. And so these are the types of flips that I'm always trying to make to make the business world actually work for women because that that resource is so beautiful. And for internationals, right? So if someone wants you to work on an indefinite contract for 40 hours a week and you're on someone else's visa, that's never gonna work for you. It's just gonna burn you out.

Claire (49:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I do love so I will say you are the first person that I've ever spoken with that like woman to woman has told another woman that I feel like my experience with women, and this isn't to disparage them, but like we're we tend to be very bad at both being supportive and then also offering some hard truths in a way that's, you know, I'm pack I'm attempting to package this in a way that will be well received by you. Nothing in your decision making is something that I'm judging, but I feel like there's something I want to say and I hope that's okay. And I love what you pointed out.

About that, because that is going back to the conversation about moving abroad for love. I'm noticing some conversations. I'm not noticing a lot of conversations about that. It is still very much a conversation of do you choose the career or do you choose the kids? And if you make a lot of money, then like maybe there's a nanny involved or something like that. But this idea that there's like a blended, not just femininity, but a blended feminism and kind of evolving how we think of things, I think that that might be maybe the next stage for all of us because that also, yes, it forces.

Mickelle (50:36)
That's the future. Yeah.

Claire (50:38)
Really hard

Mickelle (50:38)
Yep.

Claire (50:38)
conversations with like Dradwives, for example, you know, the whom a lot of whom are like multi-million dollar business owners. You know, like I think there's a lot more to say to each other than just being cheerleaders. Like, I really am not a fan of the word like cheerleader because it doesn't do justice to the depth of support that women are really able to give each other. and I think we're still we're still pushing that frontier a little bit.

Mickelle (51:06)
Yeah, absolutely. But often w women have just taken the brunt of that, taken the brunt of every part of society that's not supporting them. And all we're doing is asking for the structure to change to something that works for us. And I mean it's a big deal, but it is, as you're saying, what I want for my daughters, you know, is again, you can have it all, not at the same time, is true. But do you want it all at the same time? Like that's a valid question, right?

Claire (51:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mickelle (51:34)
and so that I just think that a woman like a society and a workplace that works for women works for everybody. It's just like good city planning. and so it works better for men and and I just Jane Jacobs is one of my heroes, like shout out to her work because I think it it holds true in all structures. So I'm trying to do my part in creating structure that works for international life and me as a founder, and I think that will work better for everybody. And it's actually just an act of pleasure.

It's not actually for me, it's just building towards my pleasure, building towards my contentment. Looks like an act of something, but it's just not. It's just making it work for every part of me. And so that's what I would challenge every that's what not challenge, like I wanna give people permission to do that for themselves.

Claire (52:19)
I love that. It's very it's a very thoughtful and intentional way of bringing all the parts of yourself and hopefully ourselves together, it sounds like.

Mickelle (52:27)
Yeah, because guess what? If you if you do that, you're better at your job. ⁓ If you're if you're getting your nervous system taken care of as a woman, you're better at your job. It's just a fact. So

Claire (52:34)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

Mickelle (52:42)
Okay, well

I promised you we would get you out of here on time. We went way off of marketing, but I think we hit on something even more important for internationals, the people you work with and the way you work. When you say you join them where they are and you are riffing with them in the way they have, I think this is part of that skill you have, and I'd love it. my last question for you is what is the advice you would give someone who's just starting?

out as an international person who's just starting a business, what's like is there one thing you could say that maybe that they wouldn't think of that would help them on their journey?

Claire (53:19)
So this is for a foreigner or somebody who's moving and will be a foreigner in a new country and is starting a business or a project of some kind. Needs to work.

Mickelle (53:25)
Yeah, needs to work. Yeah, they might need

they might have a visa. They need to start working and they need to market themselves or their business.

No pressure. So the last question.

Claire (53:32)
Yeah.

No, I'm I love it. keep coming. But I'm trying to be so my go-to, I will say my go-to on this is always to give yourself grace. But I feel like in the context of our conversation that can take that further given the specificity that we've talked on, you know, being a woman and thinking about things from a feminist angle because

Reason I'm building in this way is it is really, really hard not to compare yourself to other people when you're building. And again, that is human gospel, that is existing gospel. But when you're doing it in a foreign country, there are so many other invasive mental measuring sticks that come in. And exactly what we were talking about, you're not just building a business, you're trying to learn the language, maybe make

That's why you're in a new country. That's why you're with this person if you move for a person, or that's why you're in this situation, so to speak. And that's not to put like this overwhelming sense of responsibility on you. It's to remind you that you are strong, you can do hard things, you're doing hard things, but you're gonna make it a lot harder for yourself if you're comparing yourself to every person you meet. And I think that happens really naturally because when you don't know anybody, you're focused on first impressions and you compare yourself.

And everybody is moving with different stories, with different resources, with different motivations. And all of that can make it really hard to stay clear on what you're building and why. And you and I both know founders, you know, we zig, we zag, we are reinventing constantly. And so you're also learning that that's part of the process if you've never founded anything before. So give yourself grace. And when it feels like it's really, really hard and you're just really unhappy, ask when is the last time I've compared myself to

Mickelle (55:44)
Yeah.

Claire (55:51)
myself and not anybody else.

Mickelle (55:55)
Yeah. Look how amazing you are. But also being in uncharted territories on all fronts of your life is a lot. So if you're in un uncharted territories in every aspect of your life, that's when your intuition, yeah, you gotta tap back in. It's a it's an ever going process. And I always say one thing, one small plug is your network may have just gone from being local to international and that takes a lot longer to find your feet. So join us at House of Peregrine and

Claire (55:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (56:24)
Everyone's doing the same thing. You don't have the same advantage of every business owner that's has a local network. And so that's where we come in is to help make that fill in that international network faster.

Claire (56:37)
I didn't tee that up on purpose. Great puppet.

Mickelle (56:39)
but but I'll take it. I'll take it. No, but

it is it's important. It's important. And I love your point. And we need to wrap up because I know you need to go. But I love your point to stop comparing yourself to people who don't have your same story or that aren't building on every aspect of their life at the same time. So lovely, lovely. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you? I know you have a blog, so we'll put everything below, but just say it out for the people who are listening.

Claire (57:03)
Sure. So for just relatable human where to see me, kind of what I was saying in community building mode, not trying to find clients, more trying open to friendly connections. Those are gonna be my blog and my Instagram, both of which are not as regularly updated as I would like them to be, but you do find the real pieces of me there. So that's the millennialabroad.com or Instagram at the Millennial Abroad. And then I think probably professionally I try to show up on LinkedIn when I can. And so you can

Find me on there and add me and start a conversation. I'm always open to organizing virtual coffees if if that's of interest.

Mickelle (57:37)
Great, we'll put that all below. I'd like to thank everyone for joining us for this conversation. And I can't wait to share what we have next on the House of Peregrine podcast. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.