You Are the Table: The Overlooked Power of the Accompanying Spouse
Katja (00:00)
Emotions, behaviors
transmit through the family system. So everybody impacts everybody in a family system. If the mother is the working spouse and doesn't feel well at work, she transmits it into the home. If the kids don't feel well at school, they come back with it, transmit it into the family system at home. And then it goes back into the office with the working person. So it's really all interconnected
Mickelle (00:55)
If you've ever moved countries with children, or even if you've thought about it, you know that the logistics are only one part of the story. There are visas, schools, housing, paperwork, boxes, but then there is everything underneath. The grief of leaving, the pressure to make the move worth it, the way one parent's stress can quietly shape the emotional weather of the entire family. And the questions so many globally mobile parents carry, but can't always say out loud: How is this affecting my children?
Welcome back to the House of Peregrine Podcast. I'm Mickelle Weber, and today's guest is someone I have wanted to bring back on for some time. Dr. Katja Aegerter was one of my very first guests on the podcast, episode six actually, where we talked about third culture kids, childhood immobility, grief, identity, and what it means to help our children process a life built across borders.
Since then, Katya's work has only become more relevant, and she has recently published her second paper about transition stress on parents and how it affects children in the international population. Katya is a psychologist, researcher, and what she calls a serial expatriate. With nearly 20 years of international mobility experience, she has lived in almost 10 countries across three continents, raised two third culture kids across four countries, and spent years supporting globally mobile families.
not only in her own psychology practice, but also through workshops and trainings for parents of third culture kids on behalf of several European ministries of foreign affairs. So, Katja brings both the research and the lived experience. She understands this from the cultural side, the academic side, and the very human side of being a parent trying to hold a family steady while everything around you is changing. We all know expatriation stress is not just about moving is hard.
It can be isolation, identity loss, uncertainty, career pressure, and financial changes, the loss of support systems, and the feeling that you are supposed to be grateful for the opportunity while you are privately struggling to keep your footing. and for families abroad, these things do not stay neatly contained inside one person. They ripple out to the entire family system and the place that they're going. What I appreciate so much about Katya's work is that she does not shame parents.
it gives language to what many of us have felt, and it helps us to see the invisible systems we have been living inside. And when we can see them, we can respond with more compassion, more clarity, and hopefully more support. So whether you're raising third culture kids, considering a move, recovering from one, or simply trying to understand what international life asks of a family, I think this conversation is important and highly supportive.
Welcome back to the podcast, Katya. I am so excited that you can come back on and I'm excited to see you.
Katja (03:27)
Yeah, thank you for having me again. I'm excited to be back.
Mickelle (03:29)
I
reached out to Ineke because I saw that your paper was published and I have to admit in our first interview, which was a few years ago now,
Katja (03:39)
Mm.
Mickelle (03:40)
I was so happy to see it come to fruition. It's so important. So why don't you tell me who are you? Tell me about your work a little bit, tell us all
Katja (03:46)
Well, you already gave quite a good introduction, I feel. yes, I'm Katya. I'm a psychologist. I became a psychologist in my second career basically, while moving and relocating, while raising a family abroad. I changed subjects and went into psychology and yes, made it all the way to completing my PhD in this January, actually. And obviously, since I had a personal interest in this topic somehow.
This accompanied me throughout the whole time. Already my master thesis I wrote about third culture kids. Now my PhD research was about the same topic or similar topic, family mobility. And yes, I'm German originally. I've left Germany about twenty years ago already, have never lived in Germany ever since, lived in different places around the world, amongst others, the US, Kyrgyzstan, North Macedonia, and now back to Switzerland, which is headquarters for us or or home.
For my husband at least, not for the rest of the family. And yes, excited to be to be back in Switzerland and excited to be back here with you, Mickelle
Mickelle (04:48)
Thanks for coming back. So I want to start out by just give us the punchline, give us the the headline of your research. Because I know when I filled, I actually filled out the survey when you were gathering information, it really is what is what would you say is what is transition stress? Can you help us define that? When you move abroad, what is the transition stress? It's a lot of things moving abroad, but this specific thing.
Katja (05:15)
Yeah. We limited a little bit to transition stress. We because in this paper that I wrote and in my research, by the way, thank you for filling out the survey. Maybe some of the listeners actually also did fill out. So thank you to everyone
Mickelle (05:27)
And
Katja (05:28)
who filled out the survey. we limited transition stress or the definition to transition stress to four elements because we had to limit ourselves to a certain number of variables that we want to test.
And we did that by using established scales, psychological scales, to measure. And that's what you filled out. So we looked at perceived stress, isolation or loneliness, perceived cultural distance, and social support or lack of social support. So those were the four elements that we included into our concept of transition stress, because of
Course we looked at the research before, what is out there, and what which elements do have the biggest impact on expatriates when they move abroad, and that's how we came about these four elements of transition stress.
Mickelle (06:20)
Is
it because they were less considered in the research, or was it because you wanted to isolate it for the impact? Tell me the reason like I guess
Katja (06:28)
Exacto.
Mickelle (06:29)
the real the real question yeah, answer the question. So that's the
Katja (06:32)
I mean,
usually when you do research, you try to find something that's already out there and try to prove it or try to dissect it. And that's exactly what we did. So we looked at the research that was already out there and looked at what are the elements that stress the most. And then we took those and tried to dissect. So what and because there is not a lot of quantitative data out there on expatriate families and on stress.
So we wanted to really have quantitative data and quantitative analysis to dissect and to look at the numbers. And so what is actually stressing expatriates the most? Looking at the numbers.
Mickelle (07:09)
Yeah. And
and I think you brought a little bit of your own wisdom in because I don't think you know about these stressors before you move your first time. And
Katja (07:18)
No, yes, exactly.
Mickelle (07:19)
so it can be unknown to the people, can it be unknown to the company, and maybe even to the governments who are accepting these people. And so I
Katja (07:27)
Mm.
Mickelle (07:28)
think you're you brought in a little bit of your wisdom or a lot of your wisdom, which I think is really beautiful. Do you remember the moment
Katja (07:33)
Yeah.
Mickelle (07:33)
when you decided or was there a personal moment that made you
I I usually these sorts of beautiful things come from a personal story. And yours is
Katja (07:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (07:41)
vast. You've you've raised children across the world, but was there a moment that you can point to or several moments that you thought this needs to be seen, studied, considered in the in the larger conversation?
Katja (07:53)
You know, already for my master's research, I actually what drove me was the wish to understand the processes in TCKs. And that's how I I did my master's research, where I interviewed adult 3rd culture kids and tried to find patterns on what is a successful mobile family, what defines that, what elements go into that, what helps the kids the most. And that really came out of
Mickelle (08:18)
And tell
Katja (08:19)
my
Yeah, sorry.
Mickelle (08:20)
Yeah, and tell us what you found. Tell us what you found there.
Katja (08:23)
god, it's it's been such a long time ago. I'm not sure whether I still remember all of them. But definitely predict to create predictability, to by communicating openly, by being transparent about an upcoming move, by being transparent about the circumstances of an upcoming move.
By looking at your own attitude towards the move. If you're very negative, it also reflects onto the children. If you're positive, this can help the children digest it. making room for emotions, not trying to to console or or cheer up the kids immediately, but really making room for those emotions was one element. yeah, establish routines, try to
Find
some ways on how you can maintain a certain stability even though you move as a family. I think those were the elements in my master's research
Mickelle (09:15)
Yeah.
Katja (09:16)
that were really yeah, yeah, s prominent.
Mickelle (09:18)
So a high level of emotional
intelligence is helpful
Katja (09:21)
Yes.
Mickelle (09:22)
in every every way of parenting. So then what made you want to further this research? Cause you were there's gotta be a question or a injustice or a something missing. So tell me, I know I'm asking this very personal question, but I'd love to hear if there's an answer.
Katja (09:37)
Yeah, no problem. No problem.
You know, it was actually two, three elements driving me to start this research and to start the PhD. And one is very probably very much known to a lot of accompanying persons, because I was accompanying my husband abroad and I wanted to do something for myself as well. I didn't just want to be the accompanying person. I I'm very
I like to learn, I like to acquire knowledge. I'm a very curious person naturally. I try to understand things, processes, impacts, systems. So what was driving me was I want to do something for myself and I want to get a deeper understanding of expatriate families, of these processes. And then
Actually, coincidentally, I found this project at Basel University, which was called Home Abroad. And they they looked at exactly that. they did already, they they were in the process of conducting research in this area of expatriates, families, TCKs, and I just contacted them because I'm a curious person. I like to exchange with people. I contacted them and one thing led to the other, and they offered me to do my PhD research for them or with them.
And this was such an opportunity for me. I just couldn't say no. I knew I had I have two kids. I've I had a puppy at home at the time, a new puppy, which had just moved to North Macedonia. I knew that there was another move coming up. So but I just had to do this for myself and for the bigger knowledge because I wanted for companies, organizations, for parents to understand what's behind all this. Because
You know you yourself probably know how on the outside the facade of this life looks so glamorous to outsiders. And oftentimes companies, organizations, they do understand that it is complex, but they don't understand the whole picture, that there is a whole family. And if the whole family is miserable, the whole assignment will be miserable. And so that was driving me.
Mickelle (11:38)
But but they don't understand
that that's a skill, a very valuable skill, to be able to make this successful. And it's one that comes from
the accompanying spouse. And it's it's
Katja (11:47)
Yeah. Yes.
Mickelle (11:49)
less less and less seen as valuable and i over the years, at least the ten years I've been abroad, companies are offering less support, not more.
Katja (11:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it seems
because there is always budget cuts, there's always saving money, and this is the first thing where they cut the budget. Even though there is research out there now showing that the spouse is actually most often the defining factor. If the spouse is not well, if the spouse is not happy, it it transmit it transfers to the children, to the family system, and that's exactly what I investigated. And then the whole
the whole assignment can be not successful. It can be a failure. And then this is a very expensive thing for companies having to relocate families back. It has it creates lower levels of retention for the company. People, when they're not happy, they leave the company. So I really think this is the wrong place to save money and to cut budgets. if if at all, I would cut the budget to prepare the employer and much rather prepare the family and the spouses.
For the assignment.
Mickelle (12:52)
Yeah. And that's just a good investment. And and so is it s is it safe to say, and this is actually just my maybe I'm just projecting, is it safe to say you you wanted peop you yourself and people like you who are doing this work to be seen and considered? Yeah.
Katja (13:06)
Yes, yes. And to
raise awareness amongst everyone what this means, what this means for a family, and that it is not only the employee that is being transferred or being sent somewhere, it is this whole system behind the employee.
Mickelle (13:20)
Yep. It's their humanity and the humanity of anyone who's connected to them. So yeah. Yeah.
Katja (13:25)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Mickelle (13:27)
Okay. So so that led to the system. So you were working on the other side of the system, which was like helping parents be successful. But then did you realize that like there's no like a parent needs to live within a system. There needs to be a village for a parent, whether they're abroad or
Katja (13:42)
Mm.
Mickelle (13:42)
not abroad. And so did that kind of was that your path? Like parents can only do so much, like especially a
Katja (13:48)
You know, from from the courses that I prepare for the foreign ministries and from the feedback that I get from families who are constantly moving abroad, because I'm I mostly work for foreign ministries. So these people move on a basis three to four years, they move and they take their kids with them and their whole family. And so I practically already knew and understood that the family system.
Seems to me be much more important, the nuclear family system of an expatriate family, because they are moving from one country to the other. So they cannot rely on the wider network. They cannot rely on the extended family. It is just ri just them, really just these four, five, six people, this family, or two or three. so and and I I knew that already from the
practical
from my the families that I was teaching and then wanted to investigate that also in my research and which kind of confirmed that the family system is the most important factor and has the biggest impact. And also what came out from my research was that Emotions, behaviors
They transmit through the family system. So everybody impacts everybody in a family system. If the if the mother is the working spouse and doesn't feel well at work, she transmits it in into the home. If the kids don't feel well at school, they come back with it, transmit it into the family system at home. And then it goes back into the office with the working spouse, working person. So it's really all interconnected and
I wanted to have the data to prove that because I knew already this is something from my practical knowledge, from my own knowledge and my own experience.
Mickelle (15:35)
What makes me mad about your research is you're pointing out very obvious inhuman things in research.
Katja (15:40)
Mm.
Mickelle (15:40)
And while I am so grateful for your research, because it's a language that corporate world corporate corporations understand and governments,
Katja (15:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (15:49)
it still makes me mad for all the people that have had to kind of go with alone in order to get this research. So thanks for
Katja (15:54)
Yes.
Mickelle (15:54)
doing it, but it makes me angry. It does make me kind of angry because I've seen it myself as well. And I would say that.
Again, I think you know, since we spoke, I did a TEDx talk about women the work of women and how it's not considered in the economy. And that
Katja (16:09)
Mm.
Mickelle (16:09)
and I think companies or governments who are this larger system, women have kind of women you primarily but supporting staff supporting spouses have really taken the brunt of protecting systems, both corporate and family. Because
Katja (16:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mickelle (16:26)
when they're protecting the family, as you pointed out, they're protecting
the corporation as well. And that's
Katja (16:30)
Yes.
Mickelle (16:31)
just way, way, way too much work for one family. So
Katja (16:34)
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, there was my research was basically just taking over patterns that had already been established in other populations. So there is a lot of research out there looking at family systems, looking at parents and how stress transmits into the family system. There was research and originally
This research was looking at financial stresses. So what if a family experiences financial hardship? What does that do to the parents? And them and they found out that the behavioral and emotional response of the parents tr trip ripple into the family system and ultimately affect the children. So I wanted to take this existing research and just see whether it also applies to expatriate families, which it does. And yeah.
Mickelle (17:22)
And
that's and that's i if I read your paper correctly, that's whether they know it's there, the stress. So it's it's there if they don't acknowledge it or it's acknowledged. So you may be experiencing this unconsciously and transmitting it to your children as well. Is that
Katja (17:37)
Mm.
Mickelle (17:37)
do I have that correct? Yeah.
Katja (17:38)
Yeah, yeah, that could be.
Mickelle (17:40)
And that's that's something, that's a huge for me, flag to be conscious about the known stressors. There's a lot of known
Katja (17:49)
Mm.
Mickelle (17:50)
glamorous parts and beautiful parts and this, but going in eyes wide open with the known stresses and being able to
Katja (17:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (17:57)
they always say with moms, I think Gwyneth Paltros says this, like, kids are on your Wi-Fi as a mom. Like if you're stressed, you're transmitting whatever's going on for you, conscious or unconscious.
Katja (18:05)
Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (18:06)
And so going into a move abroad, which is what you're highlighting, or if you're not moving abroad of financial stress full time or a transition of a divorce or something, doing that consciously, knowing full well what the stresses are, is gonna benefit everybody. So just denying that there's
Katja (18:23)
Mm.
Mickelle (18:24)
stresses for companies or individuals or countries, it's just not gonna solve the problem.
Katja (18:31)
Yeah, and also
being aware, you know, that there are stressors, that there might be unconscious stressors, and already taking a first step by taking care of yourself. If you know there is going to be a situation and I might be stressed, I might be busy, already trying to take care of yourself throughout the whole process is really important because now we know the stress ripples into the family system and ultimately affects the children.
So I think also the awareness to take care of oneself before it gets too late. That's already
Mickelle (19:03)
Yep. Yep.
Katja (19:04)
something. Yeah.
Mickelle (19:06)
My new my newest phrase, which doesn't make any more sense than saying take care of yourself, is people always ask what women or supporting staff supporting spouses bring to the table, and I always just say, I am the table. And
Katja (19:17)
Yeah. Exactly. You are.
Mickelle (19:19)
it sounds it could be boastful or something, but it really is true. You are a valuable resource and whether you want to be or not. And so that's
Katja (19:26)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Mickelle (19:27)
that's what I think you're
Your research has brought to light, which people who've done this, whether they're women or not, have known. They know and maybe they're being validated by this and given something to be like, look, we need more support if we're gonna make this move. And companies going, Okay, the research suggests that we need to support families more,
Katja (19:47)
Yeah.
Mickelle (19:48)
and governments. So that's really, really cool. Okay, so let's get more into what your paper So you've done, you've released two papers. Is that right? Published.
Katja (19:54)
Yes, yes, I've published yes, I've published two papers
so far. Yeah.
Mickelle (19:59)
Yes. I'm gonna be I'm gonna be very academic 'cause I know it matters.
So you've published, which means they've been peer reviewed, they've been accepted by the academic community, and so you've
Katja (20:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mickelle (20:09)
published so what are their two papers? Tell us a little bit about them now that I've got my soapbox out of the way.
Katja (20:13)
Yeah.
it the the funny thing is that the the order of the papers was basically reversed because I wanted to publish one paper before the other, and then in the end, because the whole publication process takes so much time and some papers are much faster and the other ones some journals are faster in the peer review process, others are not so fast. So it was actually the wrong order. So the main paper that I wanted to publish first, because that was basically like the
Core of my research was that I established a conceptual model of this stress. So there is an existing called family stress model, which is the one describing the financial stresses and how that affects the family system. And I wanted to take that model and put variables in that would describe expatriate families, and then look at this model and whether that makes sense also for expatriate families, and to really just establish a model.
Which other researchers can then take and test. I mean, my plan was obviously to test this whole model, but you need a lot of data to test a model which has a lot of variables. And since I didn't have that much data, I wasn't able to test the full model in the end. So I in the end I really just tested bits and pieces of it for my other papers. And this model, yes, established this conceptual this conceptual expatriate family stress model. Yeah yeah.
And that was one paper, which then was published second. And the first one that I published was on stresses. So I took basically the first part of the family stress model that I had established, testing the stresses and their impact on the parental well-being. And because I had to break it down a little bit, I couldn't test the f the full model at that point.
Yes, and that that was the second paper that I tested these four stresses that I was talking about earlier and looked at how do they individually affect the well-being? How do they in certain combinations affect the well-being? We did an analysis called commonality analysis, where you can look at how do different combinations of these stresses actually impact well-being. And
Yeah, that is a very quantitative paper, very difficult to understand sometimes as well when you look at it again.
Mickelle (22:27)
so explain for our our audiences. Well, it's really important you get got this right because this is where the basis of compensation comes from, of how movement is considered in governments. So this
Katja (22:39)
Hm.
Mickelle (22:39)
work is actually foundational to build on, as you're saying. So you're
Katja (22:43)
Mm.
Mickelle (22:43)
making the foundation that people can then build on or test. And so in a way you're you're making visible
in the academic community and governments, this entire experience
so that it can be considered. So it has
Katja (22:57)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Mickelle (23:00)
to be rigorous, it has to be maybe not consumable to the public right now,
Katja (23:05)
Yeah.
Mickelle (23:06)
but it is in your own way, I feel, advocating and making it rigorously
Katja (23:10)
Absolutely.
Mickelle (23:11)
studied. It's going from your lived experience to academically relevant.
and that cannot be overstated, how important that is, because guess what? No one has time to advocate for themselves when you're parenting and moving countries and doing all the stuff. And so we're all kind of living in these silos and thinking that it's just us failing sometimes, or that our
Katja (23:34)
Yeah.
Mickelle (23:35)
we can't hack it, or we just need to go back to systems, which are all like you might just need to go back to a more supportive system. And
Katja (23:42)
Mm.
Mickelle (23:43)
so you're
raising
Katja (23:45)
Yeah.
Mickelle (23:46)
and proving that it's actually has an effect. Everything you're imagining when you're laying awake at night with can't sleep is true. And that
Katja (23:53)
Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:56)
that deserves recognition. It deserves support and it deserves and it will, because of your work, be able to be built upon without having to prove your entire existence every time you go into the embassy. You know what I mean? That this is
Katja (24:08)
Yeah, yes, yeah.
And this is absolutely what is especially for this this this one paper where I established the model. And in the frame of establishing the model, we looked at existing research to really look at okay, it's true. There is research, if even if not a lot of research out there confirming that these processes are ongoing in expatriate families. And the paper that they when they published it.
the there is the the editor in chief. He actually told me, this is such a relevant paper. This is this must be the foundation for so much more research to come. And I mean sadly for this population, there's usually not a lot of funding for research. There is not a high interest because there is many more more vulnerable and groups at at a higher risk than than expatriate families. But still I feel
the mental health of everyone is relevant. And so I hope that there will be more research building on this model and testing the model, trying to get enough enough data to really look at the numbers. so yeah, I hope.
Mickelle (25:16)
And
here's a question I've been trying to, I've been circling around and like poking at a little bit, even
Katja (25:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (25:22)
from the beginning of this podcast and my company, is expatriates, migrants, refugees, they're not at all having the same experience, but they are all facing a similar lack of systems.
Katja (25:33)
Mm. Mm.
Mickelle (25:35)
And that again doesn't make it the same, but
If
you look at one population, you are kind of looking at all of them. The difference between the expatriate, especially if they come with the company, is they're receiving a boon in
Katja (25:48)
Mm.
Mickelle (25:48)
the form of money, sometimes, not even always. and so money, housing, cars, which is actually tuition for their kids, that's actually falling away more and more, where people see this as an adventure or something. And and I think it's valid to say that you
there's some overlap. Do I have that? Even though
Katja (26:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (26:07)
again one population is s significantly more supported, but they are facing s the same
being in between systems or being lack of that cohesion
Katja (26:17)
Yeah.
Mickelle (26:18)
in in systems.
Katja (26:19)
There's definitely certain elements that that you see in all of these populations. Obviously, there is more hardship in some of the populations and as you said, more support
Mickelle (26:26)
Course. Yep.
Katja (26:27)
for the others, but there is similar elements and i this family stress model that I investigated was also applied to refugee youth. So they looked at how d does it affect the system. And so I think there is elements that are similar.
And if we look at one, we can also try to transfer some of the knowledge that we gain with one population also to the other population. But the problem with I'm I'm not sure the problem with expatriate families really is just that there is not a lot of funding for the research and that there as I mentioned earlier, this glamorous facade is still there, this picture of the glamorous life.
And that there is also challenges in this glamorous life that's yeah, kind of forgotten or maybe not so there's not much not so much attention on that element. And yeah.
Mickelle (27:18)
And
I wonder, just to take it one step further, because we know that a lack of research into the hardships and the strain on a system, we're we a lot there's a lot in the press right now and in the world throughout the world about immigration being the biggest problem countries are facing.
Katja (27:31)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (27:36)
and just part of me wonders if
someone has to take responsibility for these pressures, right? So it is a pressure on countries if they're having a high, you know, immigration rate. There's also advantages, right? Of course. There's both. and so with the lack of research, I feel like maybe we get it wrong with how how the system's being affected, how to support
Katja (27:54)
How to support? Mm mm.
Mickelle (27:57)
how what the advantages of might be of s being support. Like we're losing out on what might be because we're not going to stop people from moving throughout the world. That's a
Katja (28:04)
No.
Mickelle (28:05)
impulse as old as time, whether it's w through a company or through but so I wonder if the lack of research is leading us to make the wrong conclusions about what is hard on the countries about people moving into them, whether they're refugees, expats. it's affecting the place. There's no doubt
Katja (28:21)
Yeah.
Mickelle (28:22)
about it. I just wonder if the lack of research is making us come to some very unwise conclusions.
Katja (28:29)
Yeah, yeah. I I it could be. Definitely. Yeah. I don't know where yeah where the world is going at the moment with this. I feel I often feel like there there is also a lack of trying to understand the other side. Not only a lack of research, but also trying to understand what makes people move.
what they go through when they move, what they go through when they arrive in a place, what they go through when there is hostility towards them because they move to a new place. So that's a shame, I feel, that there's there's no interest in the other person's experience anymore. It's just stay away, stay out, instead of how can I help? And what do you need? Yeah.
Mickelle (29:15)
Yeah. And that being
advantageous somehow to your country. Like saying, Do you need help? is not I always I have a story of when we moved, so we my my husband w went through the the Dutch government actu actively recruits entrepreneurs who have businesses in the US and they help them move over. So we were
Katja (29:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (29:34)
under the impression very much that we were welcome here.
Katja (29:38)
Mm.
Mickelle (29:38)
So the Dutch government they came, they asked us to come, they made it very easy.
And then we landed and everyone's like, Why are you here? You're ruining everything.
Katja (29:46)
Mm.
Mickelle (29:47)
And of course, those are two like the people and the government. And so this mixed message was very interesting. And of course, I empathize with the prices going up with people moving from different countries. Of course I do. but that was completely a different message the government was sending than the reality
Katja (30:02)
Mm.
Mickelle (30:03)
on the ground. And this happens oftentimes
in every
Katja (30:07)
Yeah.
Mickelle (30:07)
country.
Katja (30:08)
You know, my first experience when I moved to Switzerland and I moved to Switzerland because I fell in love with a Swiss person. I did not move to Switzerland because the job prospects or because of the the money or whatever. I fell in love with a Swiss person in Spain. I moved back home to Germany, finished my studies, and then I moved to Switzerland. And in this year or around this time when I first moved to Switzerland for love,
There was a whole wave of German people moving to Switzerland as well at the same time because there is a lack of staff here in the medical system. They don't educate enough doctors here. So they took German doctors because they already speak the language. They can just move over. They're immediately operational. And so lots of people came over to Switzerland thinking this is almost the same country as Germany.
Just with a little higher salary and a little nicer nature. And so there was this there was a campaign by the right wing party here in Switzerland at the time when I came, because we have referendums here in Switzerland four times a year and people are being asked on certain topics and get to vote. There was this campaign by this right wing party, and at the same time there was whole series of articles
in one of the tabloids here in Switzerland. And the question that the basically the heading of this series was So how many Germans can we still bear? And I felt so unwelcome. I I was I was I what I didn't want to speak in German on the on the cell phone anymore in public. I didn't want to even show anybody that I was German because I thought I came here for my husband. I didn't come here for anything else. And
I felt so not welcome and it was a horrible feeling. And I told my husband at the time, I'm not gonna stay here. I'm I we need to move somewhere else because this is not the place I want to be. and so we did move after one and a half years in Switzerland. We moved away again because I really just didn't feel welcome at all
in Switzerland. And yeah, so
Mickelle (32:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, and that for is I wanna talk about the effect on people, but my story is they brought us here, they gave us an eight year visa, public opinion
Katja (32:20)
Mm.
Mickelle (32:21)
turned, and without warning our visa turned from an eight year visa to a five year visa.
Overnight.
And so it was a visa that affected all of our finances. So it it just in I we had I think five months left on our visa. So we had in five months we had to.
So and I I just wonder I w I saw at the time it was affecting our kids, it was affecting the school, it was affecting our work, everything to have to change. We immediately our focus had to be on survival, which I'm not
Katja (32:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (32:49)
sure you want people in your society based on survival.
We had to be, right? It was it was the government kind of turned on us with a promise.
Katja (32:58)
Mm.
Mickelle (32:58)
And so this unwelcome stress or this this survival stress, it affects the country too. And so I think that's a little bit of what your research has the potential to show is the system is goes beyond the family system.
Katja (33:13)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's it. That's what I said earlier. These spillover effects, they don't they they don't remain within the family or within the house of the family. They spill over into school, into workplaces, into society. I mean, if you look at how it affects you as a person, and then your emotional and behavioral response to this stress, you take it outside of your home, you go out.
Mickelle (33:38)
Yep. Yeah.
Katja (33:40)
You you you treat other people maybe in a different way because you yourself feel stressed or unwelcome. So I think it really does affect widely. It is really like a fire that goes further. So
Mickelle (33:51)
And
and I just wanna say this is for awareness. This doesn't mean you have to be welcoming to everybody. This doesn't mean we need the red carpet rolled out. But
Katja (33:59)
No.
Mickelle (34:00)
all all your research is showing is there is an of an effect on these things. This has
Katja (34:05)
Yes.
Mickelle (34:05)
an effect whether you want to or not. You can't just do a campaign against Germans when you've been asking them to come in Switzerland or change you know the thirty percent ruling in the Netherlands and cut people off from when they've had three years to make decisions.
Without it, of course it has a positive impact because of course nobody wants to feel unwelcome or hurt the place they are. But the awareness I think is what we're talking about. No one's asking
a
Katja (34:31)
Mm.
Mickelle (34:31)
country to just open their borders and be fine with whatever happens. That's not what we're saying. but I think the awareness
Katja (34:35)
Hm of course. Yeah.
Mickelle (34:38)
is what you're bringing and what I I want to make sure people understand from what we're saying.
Katja (34:42)
Yeah. And also I think also bef for the individual really to before starting to judge somebody else or somebody else's decision or or actions to really try to understand what could be behind it. And I mean that's probably the psychologist in me. I I had this this funny saying that I cannot be angry at anyone ever because I'd always try to understand why they are angry and what is coming out and so the the the background of it. But I think
That would be already a first little step towards making living together a little bit kinder if we would start trying to understand why people behave in a certain way and why they may have left their home to go somewhere else. And yeah, I think that would help already a lot in this world today.
Mickelle (35:29)
I also like to in remind people that people have been moving around more than they've been staying put for all of human history. So it's
Katja (35:35)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (35:37)
not like just in your generation, people have suddenly been flooding across the borders. That's not real. It just feels real. and so the human impulse to
Katja (35:43)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe it's more obvious now
because of media and social media and newspapers and the louder voice of of yeah, that happens because of all these outlets that we get that are crossing borders. So yeah, maybe we were just
Mickelle (36:00)
Yeah.
Katja (36:01)
not aware of it many, many years ago, but yeah. No.
Mickelle (36:04)
Yeah, it's not new. It's not new at all.
and it's not gonna go away. That's the other thing that I like to remind people is again, this is a human impulse to go to a place where you feel comfortable.
Katja (36:14)
Hm.
Mickelle (36:14)
it's not just peregrines, you know. I love my company, House of Peregrine, which means outsider, but it's not
Katja (36:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (36:20)
it's not just people who are adventurous or whatever. It's it's humans. Humans wanna be where they feel comfortable. And some of them are willing to move for that and some are not, but that's you know, we're not made to stay put as a rule.
So and that's that's something I like to remind people of. So if we accept that as a reality, how do we do it well? And how do we see all the angles, which is
Katja (36:39)
Exactly.
Mickelle (36:40)
what you're you're kind of bringing to light, which I love. So what else what else do you think people what are the other highlights? Like what are you if someone can't read your paper because they're not into academic papers, what what do
you want people
Katja (36:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (36:53)
to know from it, the lay people?
Katja (36:55)
Well, I think we spoke about lots of it already here in the frame of our our conversation. I think what I what I said earlier that to be mindful of stressors, to be mindful of what it does to yourself, to really try to listen into yourself once in a while when you are going through a transition, when you are trying to get your family ready or get your family to adapt, to really listen to your own
emotions and feelings and
Mickelle (37:22)
And no, it's a process.
Katja (37:22)
Take care of yourself,
yeah, and to know it's a process and to be aware that it is not gonna be perfect from the first day. It is a struggle sometimes. It can be easy, but it can also be challenging. And to really just make room for that and be intentional about whatever you need to build it. I mean, do you know how there is
Different personalities also. I mean, there is introverts and extroverts, and introverted people might not need as many social contacts in a new place. They are pretty happy by themselves, all alone at home, and having a few friends here and there and going out once in a while. But then there's also extroverted people who might really need this whole network and a a lot of life and a lot of people around them to be happy and to be fulfilled. So to to maybe be mindful of your
What do you need? What do I need to arrive well in a place? and then act accordingly, intentionally, to really establish the network, try to go out there and meet people, try to go to the school if your kids go to an international school. They are fantastic community builders usually. And establish those contacts. And really depending, it took me a long time to find out who am I, what am I?
What is my personality and what do I actually need to be happy and fulfilled? And yeah, to just listen into yourself and and find out what you need and then act on it.
Mickelle (38:49)
Get to know yourself, find out what you need, and give it to yourself. Because
Katja (38:50)
Yes. Hmm. Yes, exactly.
Mickelle (38:54)
you are the table. You are a resource. You are important
Katja (38:57)
That's it.
Mickelle (38:58)
in this process. And I think also, I think a lot of times we're given a map for different processes like getting married or having a baby. There's like milestones you can expect. There's a process of making this transition. And so there is a process of integration.
integrating into a new place. Maybe you're not fully integrated, but you are establishing your family in a place. And so knowing there is a process and that you're going to be going through it. You can't
Katja (39:26)
Yeah.
Mickelle (39:27)
you can't Instagram glamour your way out of this this
Katja (39:31)
На
Mickelle (39:31)
integration this initiation almost.
Katja (39:34)
Yeah. And also getting clear to yourself on how much do I actually want to integrate. If you are a diplomatic family and you know in two years' time there's gonna be the next posting. So how much effort do you give to integrate or not integrate? Or will you stay amongst your own people? And but to really be clear on that and to be intentional about that, I think is really important because otherwise we get lost in the process. We don't know what we want, we don't know what are is expected from us.
yeah, I think this is something I would recommend getting out of these papers. Yeah.
Mickelle (40:11)
Yeah.
For the last question I want to ask you about something a little bit more personal, if that's all right.
Katja (40:18)
Yeah.
Mickelle (40:19)
you mentioned that you were always the accompanying spouse, but you wanted to do your PhD and you had two kids. Whenever there's a startup, so I've been in the startup world forever, but it's called the zero to one problem when you ha you go from having nothing to having your first customer or your product built. I always
say
Katja (40:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (40:36)
with women there's a negative two to one problem, and with international problems
people. It's even maybe negative three to one.
Katja (40:43)
Yeah.
Mickelle (40:44)
And so there must have been a transition that you and your husband went through, and yourself went through. Can you give us some insight into how that went successfully? Cause it that's a big transition.
Katja (40:55)
Hmm.
Mickelle (40:56)
That's maybe more than one big transition that you've done. So I'm wondering if you would speak to that a little bit for people and give a little
Katja (41:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (41:01)
bit of wisdom.
Katja (41:02)
I'm not sure whether I have a lot of wisdom on that actually, because for us, I came right out of my studies when I when we moved in together here in Switzerland for the first time. And then I was talking about how I didn't want to stay here. So I was checking employment ads for jobs for mis myself, but also for him to go abroad. And at that point, I found something.
That was he was more qualified to go that route instead of me. And so I encouraged him to apply. And that's how we ended up in Washington, DC at the World Bank. so from that moment on, I was just pushed into this role of being the accompanying spouse because yeah, for him it was easier to go into this path. And I was really happy for him to go into this path.
Because I could never imagine staying in the same place for my entire life. I really was always one of these people who is restless. I cannot stay in the same place for more than a few years. And so I was happy to come along. And only after a while I realized, but this is not just it. I this is not just the thing I want to do. I don't just want to be the accompanying spouse. I want to have something on my own. I want to do something for myself.
So in the US, it was still quite easy for me to try to start a career because we didn't have kids at the time. And my husband was always very supportive along the way. And so I started
Mickelle (42:29)
What what does that
mean? Was very supportive. Like people can say they're supportive. Yeah.
Katja (42:33)
He encouraged me. Yes, he
encouraged me. He gave me the freedom to do whatever. He he corrected my CV. He corrected my applications. He encouraged me to apply to positions.
Mickelle (42:47)
Did
he also help be an equal partner at home? Or was that a transition with it you you guys already had that? Or did you somehow manage that? And because this is a transition I see a lot of people going through when they make is again that invisibleness of what the supporting
Katja (43:03)
Yes.
Mickelle (43:03)
staff was doing is often not acknowledged. You can do it as long as nothing changes at home. You can I'll be supportive as long as I don't have to sacrifice anything. So
Katja (43:12)
Mm.
Mickelle (43:13)
I know that seems like a very like,
Insider question, but I'm just wondering if that
Katja (43:17)
Yeah.
Mickelle (43:17)
was a factor for you.
Katja (43:19)
I mean at that time when I started out in in the US, since we didn't have any kids yet, it was still quite easy to also have the equality at home. and then obviously once we had our first daughter in in Washington and I decided I wanted to stay at home with her, everything fell back onto me. He had his career and I was at home. but that was a chosen
Mickelle (43:40)
Yeah, valid.
Katja (43:41)
decision.
For myself, I said even though in the US you only have like a few days of maternity leave, I said, No, I'm going to stop working. I'm going to stay at home with her because I don't want to miss out on this first year of her life. And she was a premi, so that even more complex situation. So that was my own decision that I would stay at home. And then of course, this kind of rippled throughout the rest of our time moving together, because then
I basically ended up being the company spouse, being at home, taking care of the kids, taking care of the family. and at the same time tried to do something for myself. But the the the biggest load was always on me the whole time. Household kids raising dog now. and I think that's a a
Mickelle (44:26)
Everyone, having
a puppy can have a bigger effect on your career than kids. I'm just gonna put it out there. Having a puppy's a big deal. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Katja (44:34)
Yes, and then I mean,
what didn't make it easier was that in those countries where we were posted afterwards, in Kyrgyzstan and in North Macedonia, I wasn't allowed to work as a diplomatic spouse. I did not have a work permit. There is sometimes foreign ministries have these bilateral agreements with countries so that their spouses can work in that country and the other spouses can work in their country.
And here in Switzerland we have the rule that all the spouses of diplomatic staff are just allowed to work no matter where they come from. But then a lot of other countries don't have these agreements. So we don't, there wasn't an agreement for our spouses to work. So that didn't help either, that I wasn't even allowed to work. So I needed to find ways to have a career, to move my career, to fulfill my needs for knowledge, my curiosity.
while not even being allowed allowed to work. So I volunteered a lot because if you're not paid for your work, you're always welcome to work. So I did volunteer, I did do my PhD, and at the same time most of the care work, everything stayed with me. Because it kind of that's how it shaped itself, our relationship as well, that it was his career, he was doing it, and I was keeping his back free.
And
that was okay for me, I must say. It was I saw these opportunities that I have really as a chance. I I don't know whether I would have done a PhD had I been here in Switzerland throughout the entire time building a career, I would probably not have gone back to university to do the B a PhD. So it is always yeah.
Mickelle (46:14)
Yeah. Yes. But
I want I just wanna say something. You when you asked your brother in law is it if you should get a PhD while having two kids, he said something really important. Getting a PhD
Katja (46:24)
Yeah.
Mickelle (46:25)
is not not having a job. It's just not getting paid. So what did he say? You call you told me the story. Yeah.
Katja (46:28)
I know I know, yeah. He didn't really make me yes, I told you. It's
a relative of mine. It's not my my brother in law. He he lives in the US and he's I said he's the only person in my whole family, wider family, who has a PhD, because my family is not an academic family on top of all of that. I mean my sister we were the first ones to go to university and so I called him before committing to do the PhD in this program that I talk talked about earlier.
I called him and I said, you know, this is the situation. I have the opportunity to do my research at the university as an external PhD student. And he said, well, that sounds all very interesting and exciting. And at the same time, most of my colleagues who started a PhD while already having a family and kids, none of them finished their PhD. So that was not very encouraging at the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's not easy.
Mickelle (47:18)
But it's also true. And so that's why I'm
you you made two incredibly big transitions with the same partner.
Katja (47:30)
Mm.
Mickelle (47:31)
So I I just have a suspicion that you might have more wisdom. And so that took up a lot of your time. And maybe your kids are older, of course, but we still I have teenagers. They still need me. So what were the conversations or were there conversations or transitions in your partnership that made this possible that you can you don't have to tell us, I know it's very private, but like if you can share.
Katja (47:51)
I don't remember even. I mean, my husband, as I said, he was very supportive along the way. Maybe not by helping with the trash, but by by supporting any decision that I take, by giving me advice, by looking at the pros and cons with me. He is a very critical thinking person, so he sees things that I don't see, and I appreciate that perspective as well.
The funny he once he made a comment because I did have my crises in while doing the PhD. I did have these moments when I thought, my God, this why did I even start this whole thing? I could have I could have such a nice life. I could have go for coffee with the other spouses. I could go for a weekend and I I saw other
Mickelle (48:34)
Yeah.
Katja (48:36)
people who were really having a nice life and enjoying their time in in North Macedonia.
And then I was always at home at my desk working on my papers and trying to understand these these statistical methods and trying to get these papers published and but being rejected on papers all the time. So I had my crises and I remember one situation when I turned to my husband, I said, I'm gonna quit. This is not I I want I don't want this anymore. This is not going anywhere, this is so hard.
And I want to do what the other spouses are doing. And then he was like, mm-hmm. Okay, you do that. And I know that in two or three weeks you're gonna be here again, sitting here telling me I'm so bored, I wanna do something with my brain and with my with my curiosity and my knowledge. And he had a point there because I while I missed the the life sometimes I I
I grieved missing out on the life that some of the others had, but at the same time, I would not have been the person to have this life. That's I'm just not the personality to have that life. And so yeah. Yes.
Mickelle (49:49)
And your husband was wise enough to know that, because it really does ad
it really does advantage someone to have someone watch their back and take care of their entire life.
Katja (49:57)
Giving you another perspective and yes, letting you see their
their view on you
Mickelle (50:03)
Yeah.
Katja (50:03)
from the other side of the mountain, right? Because you only see the mountain in front of you, but the person on the other side on the other mountain might see the whole mountain
and so yeah, that was interesting.
Mickelle (50:14)
I would also say that off sometimes that person can't see that you need to do that and they can only see that it's taking from them. And so that yeah. And so
Katja (50:24)
Yeah. Yeah, no, that was never the case. No. And also my husband
always saw the potential while I while I sometimes really questioned my intelligence, my can I even really do this? It's a PhD after all. And we all have that, right? Especially women. We we don't believe the
Mickelle (50:45)
Yeah.
Katja (50:45)
the potential that we have. He never doubted for a second. And that gave me courage. That gave me
really the push to to finish it and to push through. And he came to my defense in January when I defended my doctoral thesis. and I'm really glad he was there because I held my presentation, I defended my thesis, and the committee they send you out and then they discuss how they found it, what how they want to grade you. And then they called us back in and
I got the best possible grade for my defense. And my husband almost had tears in his eyes. And he said, This is so well deserved. And you know, the funny thing is, afterwards I told him, But was the presentation really that good? Did I really perform that well? And hadn't he been there, I would have believed something must have influenced them to give me this grade. But he was there and he kept telling me, It was that good. You did really well.
Mickelle (51:44)
Wow.
Katja (51:45)
And so that's the perspective he gives me sometimes really helps me to see my own potential. So that's why I think also this balance of me being there so he can make his career, but also I mean he is now there for me. And not always at the same time, right? Because there is circumstances in a family where
one of you need to be a little bit more present maybe and the other one follows their career a little bit more. But I think we have quite a good system of of yeah balancing each other out. It's it's everybody's time at some point, maybe not at the same time.
Yeah.
Mickelle (52:24)
Yeah. And I think
that the large part of what I see in your work is that you have to value that in this family system.
Katja (52:31)
Mm.
Mickelle (52:32)
You have to value that one one of you is doing something so the other can do something. And then you maybe
Katja (52:36)
Exactly.
Mickelle (52:36)
switch off and you give each other and however that works out is how it works out, but it has to be that you value all parts of it. And your work, your research, I think is giving the ability for governments and companies and even families maybe to value.
Katja (52:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mickelle (52:53)
it properly, what is done,
what is experienced, and yeah, the costs of moving countries. And so again, glamorous, amazing, love it, do it. But if no one sees the cost of it and only people are absorbing it, it it really does not make a healthy system. So
Katja (53:09)
Yeah,
yeah. And I think it's important also to s to see the experiences not in isolation, to really see the family system as the system, everybody feeds into it, everybody impacts each other. Looking at it in isolation doesn't help. And also for the companies and for the organizations to see it as a unit.
Mickelle (53:32)
It's it's not
even yeah, it's not even close to accurate. It's like not even you're gonna get bad results in your research if you see it as a
Katja (53:38)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Mickelle (53:41)
and that's kind of the point I also made in my TEDx talk is it's like the the family is a unit, an actual part of the economy. And if you isolate it and make it it it's just not accurate and it makes for outcomes you don't want, and you can't predict for. And so that
Katja (53:54)
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Mickelle (53:58)
that makes them expensive. Anyway.
But yeah, beautiful, beautiful stuff. I want everyone so you also practice with individuals, is that right? Do you are you still in private practice? So people can actually
Katja (54:06)
Yes. Yes, I'm I just
I started out I have my own practice room now here in Bern for anybody who's listening to this in Bern. I just started renting a room in Bern because I want to work with people also face to face. I really love this bilateral contact with people, having someone sitting in front of me, being able to work with them. I do work online if it's necessary as well. I I'm trained in
A certain therapy approach, acceptance and commitment therapy. I did do a lot of trainings in that approach because I really love how it handles psychological health and challenges. yes, and I do my mandates for the for the ministries as well, psychoeducational courses for TCK parents, for several foreign ministries in Europe now, which is nice because it picked up after having one. Now I have four or five of them.
The Dutch ministry as well. yes, so that's nice.
Mickelle (55:01)
Tell him to stop changing
Tell to stop changing the 30% ruling. And I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding. No, but No
Katja (55:07)
Yeah, I have no impact on that. I'm just glad that they that they
see the importance of the TCK parents and supporting the parents because that supports the children in the end. But yeah, I would be happy to do these courses for companies as well. Yeah. I I'm very excited. This this topic is so close to my heart and has been so close to my heart for many years now that I'm glad I get to to work in it. And yeah.
be professional fulf fulfilled.
Mickelle (55:34)
Your life's work.
Katja (55:35)
Yes, absolutely. It will always be my life's work.
Mickelle (55:39)
Perfect. So if people want to work with you individually or as a government or as a company, where can they find you?
Katja (55:47)
I have two websites now actually already. one for my my business for the mandates and one for my practice here in Bern. so they can go to my website, contact me there, they can find me on Instagram. I'm sure you're gonna share all the all the handles.
Mickelle (56:01)
We will. But say it out for
people who are gonna be on YouTube.
Katja (56:05)
Okay, so my the website for my courses is www.mobilefamily.support. That's just a one pager really basic information, but there is a contact form. Then the website for my practice is in German. It's www.praxis dash aegerter my last name, so quite complicated.ch
and also there is a contact form and my phone number is on their so they can always also WhatsApp me or call me. email obviously that's info@praxis-aegerter.ch yeah that's how they can reach out to me. Basically the main the main contact details.
Mickelle (56:46)
And if they want access to these research papers, the two that you've published, where can they
Katja (56:50)
Yeah.
Mickelle (56:51)
find those?
Katja (56:52)
The links are on my website to the research papers and they're open access.
Mickelle (56:54)
Okay. Perfect.
Katja (56:56)
So they should be able to access those because sometimes they're they are paid the research papers, but those are published open access, so they are accessible for everyone, which is nice. yeah, on my website there is the link. Or if you Google my name, actually everything pops up. My websites, my research papers, everything comes up when you Google me. Yeah.
Mickelle (57:15)
Cool. Well I'm really, really, really happy you got to come back on. We went to all the places. We we're women are amazing. We can talk about fourteen different aspects of humanity in one hour conversation. So you
Katja (57:26)
I know. Next time we should talk
about women more because I'm really more and more into my female friends being the loves of my life. So that's another conversation
Mickelle (57:34)
Mm-hmm. Yep. I'm w
Katja (57:37)
to have.
Mickelle (57:37)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm and across countries and continents. It's a big it's a new skill. It's a new skill.
Katja (57:41)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Clearly. Hmm.
Mickelle (57:45)
Cool. Well, thanks for coming back on. I'm so excited for this research. Let us know if the House of Peregrine community can support you again in any way with any research you're doing. We'll put it back out to the community and
Katja (57:54)
Thank you. Yeah.
Mickelle (57:56)
we will look forward to our next conversation.
Katja (57:59)
Yes, thank you very much, and thank you all for listening.
Mickelle (58:03)
Thanks everyone for listening to the House of Peregrine podcast. Please feel free to like and subscribe to our channel and please leave a comment if anything resonates or you think we missed something. We read and respond to every comment and it helps us so much. Thanks for joining us and we will see you next time.