The Relationship Reboot Abroad| Wiebke Anton
Wiebke Anton (00:00)
A relationship is never static in the sense that, you know, it's just neutral. You know, there's this the constant love or the constant affection. You know, it's not stable, static, but it's always moving in one way or the other.
Mickelle (00:13)
Mm-hmm.
Wiebke Anton (00:17)
You're either as a couple going towards disconnection, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, or you're
slowly building more connection, deeper connection.
Mickelle (00:59)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast. International life has a way of reshaping everything, your sense of self, your roles, your routines, your ambition, and sometimes without meaning to, you and your partner or your husband or wife start relating like teammates in logistics instead of lovers in the same story. Today I'm sitting down with Wiebke Anton a relationship coach, mediator, and the author of The Relationship Reboot.
I love how grounded and practical her approach is. It's less about relationship theory and more about what do we do when real life is happening and we still want to feel close. Wiebke works specifically with couples navigating globally mobile life, the couples who love each other, but are also quietly dealing with career compromises, identity shifts, and those conversations you keep meaning to have, but somehow never quite land. What I appreciate about Wiebke is that she doesn't approach relationships like there's one right model to fit into.
She helps couples get honest about who they are now, what their life is asking of them now, and how to shape a relationship that actually supports that, without blame, without drama, and without waiting until things are on fire. In this conversation, we're going to get into what changes in a partnership when you move abroad, why disconnection can look like nothing's wrong, and how to start reconnecting in practical, real life ways, even if you've been in survival mode for a while.
If you are considering a move or have been feeling a little far from each other lately, or like you're constantly adapting to the world but not adapting together, I think this conversation is for you. Welcome, Wiebke. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm really excited about this new addition to the International Living Canon, as I'm putting it. Really love the book. Can't wait to talk about it.
tell everyone, let's introduce everyone to you and your work briefly and then we'll get into it.
Wiebke Anton (02:39)
Thanks first of all for the beautiful introduction. It's nice to hear someone else summarizing your work so well.
Mickelle (02:46)
Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (02:47)
yes, I work with international couples, people who move around the globe with their family or with their spouse and help them
define their new couple culture, so to say, as you nicely put it, helping couples to discover what type of relationship they want to have in the future, healing maybe certain dysfunctions they have developed over time.
Yeah, move forward and enjoy this way of life which can be wonderful, adventurous and enriching for us as individuals and for us as couples.
Mickelle (03:22)
Yeah. And it was my experience. So I've d I've been abroad now ten years and have seen many people come in and out of this experience. what I've learned is that people actually either have this skill already in their relationship of re reimagining who they are, who the couple
is,
Wiebke Anton (03:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (03:37)
coming up with new agreements, you know, that they're kind of on the same page that way. But if it's your first time doing it or if you don't have that skill in your relationship,
Wiebke Anton (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (03:44)
it can be quite a massive shock to the system.
Wiebke Anton (03:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (03:48)
if you don't, if you're not prepared for the growth and the change that may be happening within the individual and the couple. And so is that where your work kind of converges? Is if you go to a regular marriage therapist or coach,
Wiebke Anton (04:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (04:02)
that extra layer of just how much growth happens when you change countries and pressures, is that how your work kind of maybe started or where it converges in or goes away from a regular coach?
Wiebke Anton (04:14)
I think in most cases, couples think they are smarter than they actually are, or more skilled than they actually are. Usually the clients I encounter are very highly educated, they are very reflected people, but still they are stuck in you know, their individual growth, and somehow it it's
Yeah, it became difficult to stay aligned or to yeah keep the connection intact. And oftentimes these people they are yeah, very reflected. Oftentimes they are journaling and they are talking a lot with their partner about what's going on, but still they cannot somehow translate it into improving their relationship or getting it back, on track, so to say. This is one scenario. And then, yes, as you said, there are a lot of people who
have no experience in living internationally. They have maybe no, you know, family members or close friends who live this life. They are not from diplomatic families or you know, generational expats. So they have not really a template like or like a peer group or peer support where they can, you know, ask for advice or see, this is how they do it. This is
how my parents have done it successfully. So, whom
Mickelle (05:29)
Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (05:29)
can who can I ask? Who you know, what is the blue blueprint? and I think these two groups have really different I mean people who have no experience with international life have different challenges to cope with as a couple, especially when they are maybe not prepared.
as regards their relationship. Maybe they have had a stable relationship in the past, but you know, the international life gives you so many challenges and that that you never know how it will eventually impact your relationship. It's a surprise box. It can turn out one way or the other.
Mickelle (06:06)
Yeah. And it strikes me that you said heal dysfunction. So if you live in the same place, it doesn't test
Wiebke Anton (06:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (06:13)
maybe your dysfunction is working for you or it's sustainable. But it's yeah, it's like it it puts it in
Wiebke Anton (06:15)
Exactly, exactly. Sometimes yeah, you you if
Mickelle (06:19)
a pressure cooker, any dysfunction you have, and amplifies it.
Wiebke Anton (06:22)
Exactly.
And maybe in you know, certain situations you would never have faced when living at the same place, or maybe just moving within your own culture, moving cities. So it's never a guarantee that you will succeed, it's never a guarantee that you will fail, but with every extreme situation you have to face as a couple, you know.
It puts a mirror in front of you and it will show you what are the s what are your strengths, what are your yeah dysfunctions, as you would say in in coach or a therapist lingo, or what are the weaknesses of your relationship. So sometimes I I meet people and they say, it didn't work out, we broke up, or the relationship struggles so much we we want to go back. And they f have
So much guilt and shame about their relationship not being able to buffer all the stresses of international life. But to these people, I always say you don't know anything about your relationship when it doesn't, you know, work out for you as an expert, because so many challenges are so unique to this way of life that.
It's you know, it it's it doesn't give you a certificate about if you're good as a couple or not. If that makes sense. It's
Mickelle (07:42)
Yeah. And
Wiebke Anton (07:43)
a bit like with parenthood maybe, right? Yeah.
Mickelle (07:45)
Yes, that's what I think too. But I wanted to go back to one thing. So
we know that marriages in general are about at a fifty percent failure rate, which means the couple
Wiebke Anton (07:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (07:55)
doesn't make it. Do you have statistics on how that number changes when you take the relationship abroad?
Wiebke Anton (08:01)
Unfortunately, there are no good statistics. It's mostly anecdotal evidence. And I just had a discussion with a colleague who told me that also so many couples, for instance, in the diplomatic community, they are
not div divorced and not officially separated, but they at some point agreed on, you know, co-living and co-parenting, but they are not a romantic couple anymore. Just because, you know, it their way of life requires or doesn't allow to to officially separate. So it's it's really difficult.
Mickelle (08:39)
Yeah. Because of reasons like
yeah, the reasons are, and maybe you can add to my list, visas,
Wiebke Anton (08:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (08:45)
responsibilities with parenting, housing not being possible, public image,
assignments.
Wiebke Anton (08:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (08:52)
what are some other things that you see that make it so that kind of arrangement the marriage would need the the partnership would need to stay intact for all intents and purposes, but not romantically.
Wiebke Anton (09:03)
Definitely financial dependence. I think this is yeah, I would say this is the main reason why why people stay together. because it's not really an option to leave the relationship fully, because there might be no financial security net for the spouse who has accompanied the diplomat, especially if it's over decades.
And of course,
Mickelle (09:27)
Right.
Wiebke Anton (09:27)
social capital. I mean, you are losing if you have no alternative for yourself, no not your own career and your own income, and you are used to a certain comfort and lifestyle, and you know, your friends are
From the international community, you maybe have friends all over the world and you're leaving the relationship, then all of this, you know, is put at risk. yeah, and sometimes this can be very daunting, especially if the relationship is maybe not perfect, but it's, you know, it's good enough. Yeah.
Mickelle (10:04)
Good enough. Yeah. Good enough.
And that's that's a reality that you face a little bit more is how structural the relationship is when you're dealing with visas and friends and
Wiebke Anton (10:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (10:13)
finances, international finances. It
Wiebke Anton (10:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (10:16)
the structure of your relationship is held together. I always say like families who move around together are more reliant on each other, but it's also true in couples because your yeah, your relationship holds up way more than it would if you're in your own country. So that's
Wiebke Anton (10:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (10:33)
Yeah, okay. So that's that's extra pressure, but also it may lead to more
Wiebke Anton (10:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (10:38)
alternative arrangements. Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (10:40)
Mm-hmm. And if I if
I w could add one more thing, I mean it's also for the person who has been the, you know, the moving partner. You don't want to leave your spouse potentially because you know this person has been following you, because this person is financially dependent on you. So there might be also a feeling of, you know, being trapped in the responsibility towards this person. Yeah.
Mickelle (11:06)
Yep. Yeah. And so those are diplomatic couples that decide to stay together. There's
Wiebke Anton (11:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (11:12)
all sorts of reasons and all sorts of configurations of staying together, being apart. but when people move countries as a couple,
Wiebke Anton (11:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (11:21)
the assumption is usually that they want to remain a couple. Is that that's that's the the vast majority of people you're working with. and
Wiebke Anton (11:25)
Mm-hmm, yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (11:31)
so
What I think is there wasn't before this book an kind of a vocabulary around planning for that
Wiebke Anton (11:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (11:41)
or saying what is it that we want, forecasting. a little bit like you said, like having a baby, like who's gonna change the diapers? What are our roles gonna be?
Wiebke Anton (11:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (11:48)
That's a conversation that our parents maybe didn't have or our grandparents that we are starting to have as people,
Wiebke Anton (11:54)
Yes.
Mickelle (11:54)
where roles are not as defined, it's not as assumed that the spouse
Wiebke Anton (11:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (11:58)
will accompany and be fully supportive.
but also there's like there's just way more options than just staying in the couple for like at all costs. And so mindfully doing
Wiebke Anton (12:09)
Mm-hmm. And I think
Mickelle (12:12)
this process is I feel like what you're helping people through.
Wiebke Anton (12:15)
Yes, and I think it goes hand in hand with, you know, just a generational change in expat partners. So
Mickelle (12:23)
Mm.
Wiebke Anton (12:23)
the last book written about this topic was in 2003. it's called A Movable Marriage. And it is, to my knowledge, and please educate me if I'm wrong, the only book that has been written for couples. And yeah, since that
Time nothing has
Mickelle (12:40)
Well.
Wiebke Anton (12:41)
been published. And this book, and rightfully so, speaks to I think the author was in her late 50s when she wrote the book. So it's you know already a different generation. And the expectation nowadays, in married couples or unmarried couples doesn't matter, is to, you know.
build it more intentionally and make sure both partners are involved, their careers are not, you know, thrown out of the window. So there's much more expectations that have to be handled at some point. If it's not done, you know, before the assignment, then you know it should be or it will have to be discussed during the assignment. Otherwise at some point at least one partner will build build a lot of resentment, frustration.
About why they chose this lane.
Mickelle (13:31)
Yep. And i if it's not conscious, it's it's actually a really really dangerous in
Wiebke Anton (13:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (13:36)
in today's in today's world, today's relationship structures, but also with today's financial realities, most couples,
Wiebke Anton (13:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (13:42)
even abroad, can't survive on one income. The the
Wiebke Anton (13:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (13:45)
model that a a couple or a family would come on an expat contract is much, much it's only one very small part of the population of people choosing to live
Wiebke Anton (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (13:54)
abroad. And so consciously coming into this, I think, is is a really important.
For the health of the family, the couple, the country they're moving to, the entire system. And so I I love that you're doing this work. but also I think it's like you're saying, needed. It's there's a vacuum of information. It's like having one baby book for everyone who's having babies and parenting. It's just it's not, it's overdue.
Wiebke Anton (14:12)
Mm-hmm, definitely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Mickelle (14:21)
but in this book, we we
we see, at least from what I'm reading, it's asking people to do quite a bit of internal work. and that
Wiebke Anton (14:28)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mickelle (14:30)
is can be hard, can be that there's not
Wiebke Anton (14:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (14:32)
a lot of time. it could be just one partner is seeing the need.
Wiebke Anton (14:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (14:37)
and so in this generally, not always, tends to be the woman who wants to who does the relational work.
Wiebke Anton (14:44)
Yes.
Mickelle (14:45)
How does
that work if your partner's like, I can't right now, I'm just getting used to my new office, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like you're realizing that this isn't just a rough patch. You're realizing your values are not aligned.
Wiebke Anton (14:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (14:57)
How does that work with your book?
Wiebke Anton (15:00)
It's a challenge, I won't lie. And while writing and conceptualizing the book, I thought, okay, like what am I asking of people? They are maybe moving and they have this book and maybe they bought it or someone gave it to them before they moved and you know, there's all this, you know, mess and chaos and overwhelm in the first months of moving. And is this even feasible? Like
Will people just, you know, browse through the book and then put it away and never look at it again? Yes, this can happen. And it's definitely an aspect that still keeps me occupied about if the book is doing what what I want it to. But I think
Mickelle (15:32)
Yeah. Well Yeah. Yeah, of course.
And it's a lot to put on one book, but even the title, Relationship Reboot, can be triggering to a partner who thinks
Wiebke Anton (15:41)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (15:44)
and I think you've chosen a really good word, like as soft as you can get it. But it can be triggering for
Wiebke Anton (15:47)
Mm.
Mickelle (15:49)
partners if they're like, Well, our relationship's fine. What there's something wrong with our relationship? Like, how would you frame this
Wiebke Anton (15:52)
Yes, mm-hmm, yes.
Mickelle (15:56)
process for someone who might be dealing with a partner who's more defensive or more
Wiebke Anton (15:59)
Listen, listen.
Mickelle (16:02)
overwhelmed with life and
doesn't think the relationship is the priority right now, but it's causing all sorts of havoc, not being aligned.
Wiebke Anton (16:09)
Yes, it's a it's a super important question and it's also often raised related to relationship coaching itself. I would always say start with your inner work with the first two chapters and it will already influence how you approach the relationship. And try to involve your partner not by asking of them, please do it too, please do it too, but just
Share what you read and reflect without any expectations. And
Mickelle (16:39)
Hmm.
Wiebke Anton (16:40)
I'm very positive that at some point, when the timing is right, the person will be more open to it. And if not,
Mickelle (16:46)
Mm-hmm.
Wiebke Anton (16:46)
then this also should be an indication that there has to be a more serious conversation about the priority of the relationship.
Mickelle (16:56)
Yeah. So I'm just gonna act this out. Instead of, hey,
Wiebke Anton (17:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (17:00)
I'm reading this book, our relationship's failing.
It would be something
Wiebke Anton (17:03)
Ha ha ha.
Mickelle (17:04)
like, Hmm, I'm reading this book and I learned this and I realized this and then let them be curious.
Wiebke Anton (17:08)
Mm-hmm. And I hope that people will say,
yes, they will say, I read this book and it's so interesting because it talks mostly about we want to do more of what we like and do less of what we don't like. And I would love to talk more about what is actually really working for us and explore a bit. Because I think and I'm
Mickelle (17:29)
Yeah. So seduction seduction instead of threat.
Wiebke Anton (17:33)
Exactly. I think it's and I I want this was my one of the main goals I wanted to achieve with a book, that it's not daunting because it's so negative, but I wanted it to be encouraging and you know being this on this exploration a journey and yeah just using this momentum that you already have. And maybe may
Mickelle (17:57)
Yeah. I love this.
This we'll put it up in the show notes, but it there's this little you can't see it. There's this little model of like the kind of thinking about your couple type
Wiebke Anton (18:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (18:08)
and then gives you some options and then it says we used to be at the moment we are and I would like us to be, and where they overlap in the relationship. And then we used to be at the moment we are. So it gives you a good example of like our
Cause it could be we used to be, we still want to be, but this is what's going wrong. Or it could be
Wiebke Anton (18:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (18:29)
in this chapter, we want to be this couple. Like in and that's what we're gonna
Wiebke Anton (18:32)
This is
Mickelle (18:33)
do and we're gonna agree to, and that's what these that's our goal together is to become that.
Wiebke Anton (18:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (18:37)
And so we make every decision through that lens. and that's the reconnection. So that's I've skipped to the end of the book just to give people, but
Wiebke Anton (18:44)
Ha ha ha.
Mickelle (18:45)
there's steps before that, and that's
I think there's so many great things like this, but I I think getting started is actually the hardest part. Getting someone
Wiebke Anton (18:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (18:53)
on this project of a reboot is so,
Wiebke Anton (18:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (18:57)
so tricky, especially when you're in such a upheaval. And so of course we
Wiebke Anton (19:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (19:02)
want people to perhaps go through this process before
Wiebke Anton (19:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (19:06)
they move, before they're in these this higher stress moment or few years.
Wiebke Anton (19:11)
Yes.
Mickelle (19:12)
and then
But even then it's kind of triggering. And so I think we're starting to reframe relationships in general towards like they're going to change over time, people are going to change over time. But when you're in a high pressure situation where as you as we were talking about earlier, you're so dependent on each other, whether that's
Wiebke Anton (19:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (19:30)
for taking care of the kids or the house or financially, it's just a high pressure situation. And that's what I want people to know is you're going into a high pressure situation. Super fun.
Wiebke Anton (19:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (19:40)
Super lots of things, but it is a high pressure situation. It tests your relationship. It stress tests it. Stress tests it. and so it's unwise at best to not look at this, I would
say. It's
Wiebke Anton (19:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (19:51)
like a bad financial decision. It's like not looking at your finances before you move abroad. This is like making your relationship solid so it can withstand and
Wiebke Anton (20:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (20:00)
actually have more fun, like you said, in this process without the relationship stress.
taking over and maybe completely hijacking your adventure or your time or your move or your jobs, your kids. It's just I want people to consider it as actually as seriously as their finances.
Wiebke Anton (20:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (20:20)
And that's that's where they would come to you, I think, or c get this book. And so once we get past the stage where we're both on the project, or one of us is on the project, like you said,
Wiebke Anton (20:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (20:30)
you can do it yourself, which is not true, but you can be the one who's spearheading the effort of figuring out how to find each other again or make sure you don't lose connection. how do you tell the difference between a rough patch?
That's maybe because of a transition and an actual reconnection.
Well, 'cause there's gonna be moments of c disconnection of obviously when you're in
Wiebke Anton (20:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (20:53)
these moments, these big moments, but when the dust settles and you're st in you know, things aren't getting better
Wiebke Anton (20:59)
Okay, so when do you know if it's just a phase or if if it's a structural problem that
Mickelle (21:04)
Yes.
Wiebke Anton (21:05)
needs to be, you know, looked at more professionally? Yes.
Mickelle (21:07)
Yeah. Yep.
Wiebke Anton (21:09)
This is I love this question so much because it's one of the hardest questions to answer for yourself often, especially when you are very smart and you are very good at analyzing situations, you're a very reflective person.
I think there are a couple of marker questions that you can check in with yourself. And a really good question is: can I remember the last time that I was generally happy with this person? And how how long was that ago? If it's longer than six months ago, it's you know already indicating too much time has passed when you felt really good with this person, at ease, relaxed.
Happy? Like when did you laugh for the last time? Yeah. And then looking into the future, if you think about going on a on vacation with this person next week, is it s giving you stress? Is it giving you some kind of exhaustion already thinking about, you know, spending a lot of time with your partner?
Or maybe you think, I'd rather be alone maybe for the next holiday. I would love to enjoy time just time for myself. And thinking about your next, you know, big family holidays coming up or vacation time, if you think about spending a lot of time with your partner, is it
Do
you feel excited? Do you feel stressed, anxious? or does it give you some, you know, negative body feedback? This is where you should yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (22:37)
Yeah. And yeah, and that's really reflecting going into your body because I think
that's what's different. Big difference, one big difference is when you live, say you live in the same city or town or country,
Wiebke Anton (22:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (22:50)
there are rough patches, but they're easier to spot that they're
Wiebke Anton (22:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (22:54)
rough patches. But when you live abroad, there are rough pat like that's just a literal
Wiebke Anton (22:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (22:59)
there's it's not like you can avoid it. There it's just
Wiebke Anton (23:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:02)
you're moving house, you're putting kids in school.
You're doing more
Wiebke Anton (23:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:06)
than you should be doing as two people, whether you've
Wiebke Anton (23:09)
Yes.
Mickelle (23:10)
moved with the package or not. So it's not, it's not if, it's when these rough, not even rough patches, months sometimes of disconnection or relating differently as partners, as logistics. that it's not a question that that's gonna happen.
Wiebke Anton (23:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:26)
And so when does it become a habit? That's what we're trying to
Wiebke Anton (23:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:29)
assess. When is resentment building? When is
it clear that our values aren't aligned anymore, that we don't have the same idea of what this move is going to be like.
Wiebke Anton (23:31)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:37)
and that's, you know, more also we're looking at patterns as much as feelings, I think. because it might be that
Wiebke Anton (23:43)
Yes.
Mickelle (23:45)
you thought you would get a nanny and then the nanny's not coming. And then, you know, it's like everything's from scratch. So everything
Wiebke Anton (23:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (23:52)
is again, I just want to stress how much you're it's not, it's not if, it's when.
Wiebke Anton (23:57)
And I think the the big pitfall is that the more you move abroad around the world, you're you become very good at adjusting, being flexible, you know, going with the flow in terms of, you know, you have an obstacle, you solve it, another obstacle, you solve it. So you become perfect life managers. the question is when have
When have you become overly adapted to you know these rough rough phases in your couple life? So this is you know exactly. So the
Mickelle (24:30)
Yeah. And it's almost like it's like roommates on steroids. Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (24:36)
the the challenge is to use to put it on pause and think about okay, if I told this to my friend, would
or me look from a bird's eye perspective, is this something that I want for longer periods of time? Like is there an end to this phase? When we move, we're where like the moving phase. Everyone is super stressed, everyone is hyper functioning, there's no time for, you know, dinner.
dinner night out, there's no time for maybe having a long walk every weekend because you know everyone just needs to get things done and so on. But do I know that within the next three months this will change? Okay, yes, perfect. Then you know I'm looking forward to the three months and then I see okay we re-established,
Mickelle (25:26)
We'll reconnect.
Wiebke Anton (25:28)
we reconnected. But if these kind of
Rough phases continue forever. This is where we have to be alarmed or be conscious about.
Mickelle (25:38)
Yeah. Yeah, and I do see that it's easy to be like, sorry, we can't reconnect. But I would argue
Wiebke Anton (25:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (25:45)
that it's important to I maybe this is my it's still important to even though it seems impossible, and and we s we see this with people who are moving with kids. Like this is the advice
Wiebke Anton (25:57)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (25:58)
with kids is find moments to connect, find moments to
Wiebke Anton (26:00)
Yes.
Mickelle (26:02)
if you don't do that, it's harder on the kids. And so I would venture
That going through a period of disconnection is even unwise. I think prioritizing
Wiebke Anton (26:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (26:11)
those moments of connection is actually again like making deposits in your long-term success of your relationship. So
Wiebke Anton (26:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (26:19)
it might be ill-advised to accept that you the roommate phase even in those moments. Is that that's my working theory.
Wiebke Anton (26:24)
Yes. I agree. No, I I
100%. I mean, there's always you can always find a lot of reasons not to engage with your partner. And truth is, so many people waste a lot of time with stuff that should not have a priority in their day.
I mean, just look at your screen time, even it during a move, right? And you will see, okay, I wasted forty-five minutes on Instagram. And you could just have sat
Mickelle (26:52)
Yeah. But even in even in the
Wiebke Anton (26:54)
down at with a coffee or tea or a glass of wine with your partner and just
Mickelle (26:58)
Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (26:59)
talk.
Mickelle (27:00)
And so that's that's the thing that I want people to also take away is I'm saying it's inve inevitable that you'll feel disconnected, but that doesn't mean completely deprived of connection.
Wiebke Anton (27:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (27:10)
Like if you're it could reach to a deeper problem if your partner never prioritizes the relationship, which is what you were talking about a little bit earlier, is that's a structural problem if if
Wiebke Anton (27:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (27:20)
you can't if one of you is feeling disconnected and the other feels like it can wait.
Wiebke Anton (27:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (27:26)
that might point to a larger structural problem. Okay. I love that you've included boundaries in here. And I wonder, yes, maybe you're teaching people about boundaries for the first time, but is it fair to say that boundaries might change when you move countries that in ways you may not expect?
Wiebke Anton (27:44)
Do I understand that you don't think they would change? Or
Mickelle (27:47)
No, I is it fair to say that they do? Like and so it's worth going over them in detail, maybe where you wouldn't have had to before.
Wiebke Anton (27:57)
I wanted to include boundaries because I wanted to give couples who have been together for longer periods of time just bring it on the table again. And
I didn't want to leave out any topic that might have changed or just, you know, r changed in order.
And I think that if you become the d more dependent partner, maybe certain boundaries are becoming more relevant for you, or they you become more conscious, of certain boundaries that you never thought about because they were not relevant.
Mickelle (28:32)
Give us an example.
Wiebke Anton (28:34)
I knew you would ask me. Now I need to come up with a good example.
Mickelle (28:38)
The one that comes to my mind is contact
with people of the other sex. Or
Wiebke Anton (28:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (28:43)
like maybe you didn't feel as threatened before or you were less sensitive about it. This also comes up after you have kids if you're the more dependent partner, is like they're out in the world more, you're
Wiebke Anton (28:51)
Yes. I'm also
Mickelle (28:53)
more invested in the family, and so things become a little more sensitive.
Wiebke Anton (28:56)
Yes, I was thinking also about business trips and boundaries about yeah, about work.
And spilling over into family time. Someone, some couples become very, very nitpicky about you know getting home on time, not being available on the weekends for work calls, etc. often coming from this deficit that you know the person is less available mentally when coming home during the week, so they are absolutely strict on.
their partner not being available for work calls or you know anything work work related on weekends. But also as you said, meeting with with the the other sex. Interestingly this often switches during the assignment because in the beginning, you know, you have the working partner meeting a lot of people in the beginning
but then a lot of their social contacts are work-related, while often the other person has a slower start, but then builds a social network that is not related to work and then often more flourishing than the the working partner. Yeah. So mm-hmm.
Mickelle (30:04)
Yeah. But I think it's important to go over it because you're both vulnerable there. But when you're
again, you've add that extra financial and
Wiebke Anton (30:12)
This is
Mickelle (30:14)
like maybe you've quit your job to for this assignment.
Wiebke Anton (30:16)
Mm.
Mickelle (30:17)
So you're financially, emotionally and visa, like
Wiebke Anton (30:21)
Mm.
Mickelle (30:21)
everything's more loaded. so I like how you have privacy boundaries, decision-making boundaries, time boundaries, emotional boundaries,
Intellectual, spiritual boundaries. These are all really good. Relational boundaries, physical boundaries, financial boundaries. I think these are some that might change more, especially when you're having to support yourself with people around instead of just family or people you would normally trust implicitly.
Wiebke Anton (30:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (30:43)
So people, but also like you have a lot more financial touch points that you have to make decisions on.
Wiebke Anton (30:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (30:48)
Emotional boundaries. So I really like that you included this. And I think it is important, like you said, sometimes you can get by.
with thinking you know the other person's boundaries, but especially if you're moving country, if you've been in relationship a long time, it's really good to re examine or reboot, as you say. so you have
Wiebke Anton (31:05)
And
and I think also it's important to discuss when you move to a country where you have suddenly a totally different economic status than in your in your home passport country, whatever you want to call
Mickelle (31:18)
Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (31:18)
it.
Mickelle (31:19)
Give us an example of that.
Wiebke Anton (31:21)
For instance, in Germany, my husband is Dutch. So here we are just a middle class family. But then when we moved, we first moved to Kyrgyzstan, and there we were also, I would say, middle class, upper middle class. Because Kyrgyzstan is, I think, in theory, it's a div it's not a developing country, but it's not in fully industrialized country either. So there are of course a lot of people who have less income.
income and a lower living standard than we had, but still we were, you know, living in a normal apartment in this in the city. And we met a lot of other internationals who were much more wealthy than we were, but because of our international background, it was much more fluid. But then moving to Rwanda, we were, even though our income did not change immediately in the you know upper 20%, I would say.
and this really influenced how we are perceived as a family in the society, our living conditions,
Mickelle (32:21)
Mm.
Wiebke Anton (32:22)
and also the expectation that we would need to have staff, we would need to have security, even though in Rwanda it's absolutely not needed. But you know, it's the expectation from you as a wealthy family to have people employed, so you support their families through employment and so on and so on and so forth. But this, you know.
and now my personal experience comes in. This to me, as the self-employed, not really working partner, was put in the position of the household manager. So we had to discuss things like okay, who are we lending money? Who are we gifting maybe money? how do we support our staff? who is that you know decision taker? or the
Mickelle (33:07)
And this is a skill
you wouldn't have had to develop otherwise. Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (33:10)
Exactly, because here
we don't have employees and we don't have to make sure our employees get get trained, no one is asking us for money. and you know, this is a very egalitarian society, so no one expects my husband to be the speaker of the family and to be, you know, the strong man who
makes all the big decisions. Whereas in Rwanda this could create friction. So we had to discuss how we make decisions, how we express them to the community or to the people who work for us, and so on and so forth. What what are our family boundaries? And yes.
Mickelle (33:46)
Yeah. That's it's and it's a completely different paradigm. Yeah. Yeah.
That makes sense. And also that's that can be stressful if one of you is is handling it this way and another one of you
Wiebke Anton (33:58)
Mm.
Mickelle (33:58)
is handling it this way, it makes you weaker as a couple and as a family, but also feel less aligned in your relationship. And so
Wiebke Anton (34:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (34:07)
it feels it can feel like betrayal or it can feel like
Yeah, it can it can bring up a lot of things if you're not on the same line about how to outwardly present as a family as in a couple, which is important and that reach it changes every culture you go to. Such a good point.
Wiebke Anton (34:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (34:24)
I missed this first thing, so I just want to again, we'll put it up on the screen, but you have these three circles and it says a relish a relationship reboot is a combination of looking inward,
Wiebke Anton (34:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (34:36)
reconnecting outward, and bringing it to life.
Wiebke Anton (34:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (34:39)
And that's
what a relationship reboot is.
Wiebke Anton (34:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (34:43)
and that is so important. But also, I think what you're describing here is maybe your relationship didn't change, but the way you operate in the world changed. And that that can also be like your relationship's fine. You feel solid, but you're going
Wiebke Anton (34:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (35:01)
to a country where you actually do have to go through a values exercise.
Wiebke Anton (35:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (35:06)
because you now have staff, you now have new skill, you
know, you're now different in the place as a family, even though nothing's changed on the inside. And so there can be many reasons for this reboot. It doesn't just have to be that you feel like your relationship's in peril.
Wiebke Anton (35:19)
Yes, one hundred percent. Yeah.
Mickelle (35:22)
Yeah.
And so I think that's that's a message also for the anyone who's listening that thinks that if this is on your partner's nightstand, they're leaving you.
Wiebke Anton (35:31)
Yeah.
Mickelle (35:34)
So again, it's just it's just so important that people realize that relationships change no matter what. They change more.
People change more when they live abroad.
Wiebke Anton (35:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (35:45)
I love that you also have the Marie Condo method applied to expat love life. Please explain.
Wiebke Anton (35:50)
I was looking for a term that people would immediately understand, which is the whole idea of decluttering. And Marie Condor says you have to take one thing that you have in your space, house, wardrobe, you have to look at it and think about okay, does it still serve me or does it not? Can I let it go? Does it, you know
spark joy. I think this she really established this this term terminology. And what I want to say is that when you move to different country, I mean even if you move within your your your where you live, yeah.
Mickelle (36:27)
Passport country. Yep.
Wiebke Anton (36:29)
You can go through and inventorize your relationship in terms of your habits, your patterns, your activities together, and think about: okay, we somehow started doing this, but does it still add anything to our life? Or is it just a relationship chore that we developed and it's not giving us anything anymore? And this is what I
Mickelle (36:51)
Yep. Yep. And and looking at it
yeah, and looking at it objectively is super helpful.
And that so that's that's kind of so give us an example. So let's say we're moving, we always have coffee every morning, and we have date night on Saturday.
Wiebke Anton (37:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (37:09)
Is that still working for you? Like how like how would that conversation go that's not like throwing out precious things that some one person loves and the other person is not important to them? Give us a hint.
Wiebke Anton (37:19)
f first of all I I
Mickelle (37:20)
Because often one partner's more
oriented towards growth than the other. And so they might not approach this so gently.
Wiebke Anton (37:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So
I think this is one of the exercises you first do individually and then regather and talk through your points. But you
Mickelle (37:35)
Mm-hmm.
Wiebke Anton (37:35)
could also have this, you know, from start together, this conversation. So the the leading question should not be what do we do with it, but what was its initial purpose?
Mickelle (37:46)
Mm.
Wiebke Anton (37:47)
And if it's about a ritual that you know about quality time, then the question is, okay, of course we still want to have quality time. But what makes you think that this is a bit outdated? Like is it the
Mickelle (38:03)
Mm-hmm.
Wiebke Anton (38:04)
timing? Is it the format? Is it or does it you know add more
burden or obligation, then it gives you happiness, then we
Mickelle (38:15)
Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (38:16)
should can talk about time, timing, formats, whatever, and you know, modify the event because still we want the connection to happen or the quality time to happen.
Mickelle (38:30)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's key. And that's I think one of the hardest turns, at least I've seen people or with with with have different they have different ideas about growth or about how relationships go, is turning towards it like an object. That's what I really like. It's like, let's objectify this for a moment. Let's take the emotions out, even though it's super precious to us. Objectify
Wiebke Anton (38:44)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Exactly.
Mickelle (38:51)
it, turn towards it together and
Wiebke Anton (38:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (38:54)
start looking at it like that before before.
jumping into throwing it out or whatever. And so
Wiebke Anton (38:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (39:00)
that's the hardest turn I think for some people to make, especially in these times of like high stress. It's like, wait a minute, you no longer do that thing I love, but why? Why? It it can be
Wiebke Anton (39:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (39:09)
very destabilizing if you just start marie condoing things
Wiebke Anton (39:12)
Yes.
Mickelle (39:12)
without the proper mindset or paradigm in place. And so that's where your book does a really good job. Yes.
Wiebke Anton (39:17)
Yes. Because people are often very vulnerable, right? They they are maybe more
anxious or maybe there's certain insecurity about the relationship's future or what role do I play for this person at this point. Yeah.
Mickelle (39:31)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And especially if it's
been hard for a really long time. And that we I can't say it enough that the e the earlier that you can start having these conversations, the better, because a lot of fear can build up, a lot of habits, a lot of damage. that is preventable if you know it's coming. And it's a little bit like having a baby or getting married.
Wiebke Anton (39:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (39:51)
There's a lot of advice and a lot of like, you'll hit this milestone, or yeah, this is just a phase. Don't worry.
You have a colicky baby, everyone's like, that passes. You have a colicky relationship, everyone's like, I don't know. I don't know if that's gonna pass, you know. And so just the this book offers a lot of wisdom in that and also how to frame it
Wiebke Anton (40:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (40:10)
together, or even if you're doing it on your own, that is full of a lot of I think growth mindset instead of diagnosing, which I really like. It's like,
Wiebke Anton (40:18)
Yeah, yes.
Mickelle (40:21)
sure, you have.
Maybe you have an attachment style that's not or whatever, you know, whatever's going on. But here's
Wiebke Anton (40:26)
This is
Mickelle (40:26)
the let's get down to it and actually look
Wiebke Anton (40:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (40:30)
at this stuff and know it's coming, know it's normal. yeah, and just go through it together, looking at it together instead of looking at it as a diagnosis or something.
Wiebke Anton (40:40)
Yes. If if I can add one more thing to the to your question regarding what do you do with a decluttering exercise if one person feels threatened
Mickelle (40:48)
Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (40:49)
or not. And as a general advice or or interpretation, what I learned from working with couples is that
A relationship is never static in the sense that, you know, it's just neutral. You know, there's this the constant love or the constant affection. You know, it's not stable, static, but it's always moving in one way or the other. Even if
Mickelle (41:10)
Mm-hmm.
Wiebke Anton (41:15)
it's like tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny steps. You're either as a couple going towards disconnection, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, or you're
you know, slowly building more connection, deeper connection.
Mickelle (41:30)
Mm. Yeah, it's not a solid state. Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (41:30)
So it's a fallacy exactly,
it's a fallacy fallacy to think if I don't do anything, it will not, you know, hurt. But the inaction is in the long run, unfortunately, you know, what's what's undermining, what is slowly increasing the disconnect.
Mickelle (41:49)
Yeah. That is such good.
Wiebke Anton (41:49)
So not talking about
yes, not talking about these habits that somehow feel, you know, not needed anymore. Of course, it's very confrontational, and especially if you're someone who leans more towards avoiding conflict and avoiding hard conversations. It can be like, ooh, we need to have this conversation. It's in the book. You can always say the book says we have to talk about it. Right? It's better
Mickelle (42:14)
Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Wiebke Anton (42:17)
To do it instead of not doing it in the long run.
Mickelle (42:20)
Yeah. And it's such a beautiful bit of wisdom that you're either you're it's always moving. It's always a dance.
Wiebke Anton (42:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (42:27)
it's always moving either towards more connection, deeper connection or disconnection. And that is if we get nothing else out of this today's episode, I think we've we've done people we've given people something. so I want to wrap up because I want to be mindful of your time, but when I
want to say that this is essential reading for people if they're thinking of moving abroad. But also I think it's helpful if people are not moving countries. as as you said. And so did you write it with I I feel like when I read it, it has sprinkled about, but you could replace moving abroad to going into a new phase, becoming grandparents, becoming
Wiebke Anton (43:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (43:04)
empty empty nesters, I don't know, going
Wiebke Anton (43:05)
Yeah.
Mickelle (43:06)
through a a scary diagnosis. Like you could apply you could
take living abroad or living internationally out
Wiebke Anton (43:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mickelle (43:13)
and replace it with big life things and and it would still be as wise and relevant. Is that did you intend that?
Wiebke Anton (43:20)
Not in the first place, but after, you know, I had my beta readers reading it and then I showed it also to some friends who are of course always kind, but they all most of them said, this also applies to, you know, people who just got parents, or who are in a patchwork family, or maybe if you move from the big city to a village because you bought a house there, you can apply it to
Any life transition, and I thought, you're right, it's true.
Mickelle (43:50)
That's when you know you've got some you've got a good book there. Well, I would
I would love for all all of our readers to consider picking it up and if not, following you in some way f way fashion. Is there anything we didn't cover today before we close that you want to share about the book or about what you've noticed about couples who are going through these big transitions?
Wiebke Anton (44:09)
I think I'd like to add that if you buy the book, you also have access to a workbook. So the book itself has a lot of questions, but I d designed a workbook that has all these questions and space to take notes and some extra prompts.
so it you really get into the flow and you don't procrastinate or you just browse through so it creates a bit of accountability. The workbook is free, so I encourage everyone to download it, print it and and work with the the book and the workbook to to create progress.
Mickelle (44:48)
Yeah. And if they get stuck, they can
reach out to you and have a session, or how does it work for your clients, for your in person clients?
Wiebke Anton (44:55)
Yes, if you f start working with a book and you f see you are stuck or you have a question, you can always reach out. We can have a quick call and then if people would like to work with me and maybe dive.
deeper or they get stuck because conflict comes up more than they want to, then of course I'm available for sessions. Yes.
Mickelle (45:23)
All right. We'll get the book, get the workbook, and then reach out. where can people find you?
Wiebke Anton (45:28)
You can find me on LinkedIn or on my website. I guess the links will be in the show notes. I
Mickelle (45:34)
Yeah, but just say it for people who
Wiebke Anton (45:36)
okay. It's very easy. Helpfulove.com is my website. And on LinkedIn you can find me as Wiebke Anton Funnily, there's another Wiebke Anton who's also doing couples work. Funnily.
Mickelle (45:50)
Okay.
Wiebke Anton (45:50)
But it's you will find me for sure.
Mickelle (45:54)
Okay. Very good. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for writing this book. I hope everyone grabs it because it is beautifully done and very, very helpful. and thank you everyone for joining us today on the House of Peregrine podcast. I'm so happy to bring these conversations to you and I am looking forward to our next conversation.