You’re Fighting About the Wrong Thing

Victoria (00:00)
Your money should be aligned to your values and you should spend it a l based on those values. Of course, when you're an individual, nobody questions that how you spend your money when you are in a couple, that's different. and that alignment

requires communication. So we give you the tools and things we've tested ourselves.

to for you to be able to communicate around those values or those money discussions in a better way

Mickelle (00:24)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast. Today I'm sitting down with a couple who know firsthand that love and money are one of the most complicated pairings there are, and that it gets harder still when a border in a whole other country gets added into the mix. Sixteen years ago, Victoria Candemir left Moldova for Amsterdam. She earned a degree in economics and finance, landed a solid job, and spent more than a decade climbing the corporate ladder, saving and investing half of everything she made.

She did it all exactly the way you're supposed to, and still she never felt like she made it, like she had enough. Eventually, she realized the number in the account had never been the point. She was winning with the money game on paper and quietly losing at building a life she actually felt rich in. That's part of what drew her to Carlos Garcia, Venezuelan raised in the US, shaped by Spain, now also in Amsterdam. Together they run Amsterdam financial coaching, helping couples and especially international couples.

Get on the same page about money as partners and as a team. Welcome to the podcast, guys. I am so excited to talk to you today. Thanks for coming on.

Victoria (01:24)
Thank you for inviting us, Mickelle We're super excited to be here. Yes,

Mickelle (01:28)
Right.

Victoria (01:28)
very excited. Thank you.

Mickelle (01:30)
Great. I'm gonna jump right in because when I saw your posts, I sent it to my producer and I was like, we have to talk to them because I've before I want to hear your story, but before we get to it, I just feel like this is such a present topic for most of international couples, especially if they're across countries, that being in survival mode all the time, being in another country, or just not being able to find the right people to support you with this journey. so I think it's super, super important that.

that people like you exist and that I bring them to everybody. So thanks for coming on. so first off, I just want to briefly hear how this came about. I briefly mentioned it, but what was your your money story as a couple?

Victoria (02:09)
our money story is a couple. Is it okay if I first we met on a dating app four years ago, and I remember on Carlos's profile, there were three things there that drew me to him. One was that he really liked breakfast. The second one was a joke about a pony in in Ireland which cracked me up.

and the third thing was that he was into investing. And I have been on my own financial independence journey for for some years now. So seeing that on his profile drew me to him because I thought, okay, well, the here is a person that I could talk about money with and especially about investing. and I was right.

Mickelle (02:49)
So you guys could geek out a little bit.

Victoria (02:51)
Exactly.

Mickelle (02:52)
And usually love and money don't go together very well, so that was very special.

Victoria (02:56)
Yeah. Yeah, for me I always knew that it it was important that my partner also was interested in finance or in money and not only just managing it but also, you know, options, talking about it, different topics around it, how can you you know, learn about investing or other areas and and

Yeah, and that's why I actually put it on the app. But so I I thought, maybe there's somebody out there who who thinks and finds it interesting and yeah, here we are a few years later, married and still still learning. Still work working at Still talking about money and geeking out over it. Yes. Even during

Mickelle (03:30)
Yeah.

Victoria (03:30)
lunch or or dinners we w we sometimes discuss something, so

Mickelle (03:34)
Yeah, and I think that's really I mean, at least in the Zeitgeist for me, there's all a lot of changes in philosophy around money. Like it's life force energy. It's it's part of your life and and it's often taboo, and maybe that I hope that's changing. within, you know, polite society, you don't talk about money within a relationship, it can come sometimes be one of the top reasons for divorce. and not only that.

But when you live abroad, which is where our audience comes in, it becomes even more difficult to talk about sometimes and also maybe harder to find people that know how to deal with the complication. And then lastly, it becomes even more important because you actually are between countries. You have to kind of have you know all your ducks in a row, maybe more than you would if you were in a normal country.

And so tell me how you guys s decided to start your financial coaching business.

Victoria (04:25)
well I think it started with me because three years ago I I've I was going in circles thinking what do I really want to do with my time so that it's more impactful. I have been building a career in corporate and it has been a very rewarding career, has given me a lot that I'll be grateful for, and at the same time I was missing something.

and I couldn't really put my finger on it. so I went and I got one of those career workbooks that you can find at places like the School of Life, which are really great for like introspection and self-reflection, all that. Carlos remembers I was like sitting with the book doing the exercises in the living room. And somewhere midway through the book,

There was one of these prompting questions of like to help you figure out what you like doing. And I remember just writing finances and psychology. I just put those two things together. And then I kept reiterating on those two things until eventually I wrote down financial coaching question mark. And then I went on Google and I Googled it. Is financial coaching a thing? And it turns out that it's a huge thing in the US.

It's like an amazing industry over there, but not so much in Europe. And no wonder I've never heard of it li having lived in Europe.

So that was when the idea was planted in my head. And then I started to develop it more and more until until I was talking to Carlos and I said, hey, what if I just put it out there that I would like to do financial coaching for people and invite people to do beta sessions so that I could test if this is a viable concept. And our first client was a couple.

And then I went to Carlos and I said, You know, I'm feeling a little bit nervous coaching this couple on my own on their money. Can you come with me so that we balance a little bit the energies in the room? And Carlos was like, Okay, sure, I'll do it for fun. Let's see what happens. And here we are. It's stuck.

Mickelle (06:12)
It's stuck.

Victoria (06:13)
For me at least I thought well I can at least talk about investing and the things that I'm already kind of passionate about and I have some coaching background from just my also my own career. So I thought, yeah, why not? And we can help people in the same things that we struggled and so many, many sessions later we're still doing it. So and that

Mickelle (06:31)
Yeah.

Victoria (06:32)
that first client couple, little did we know at that time, but they were with us for one year. Yes.

Mickelle (06:37)
Wow.

That's amazing.

Victoria (06:38)
Because every

time we would uncover another layer and another layer and another layer. They're also parents and they're also internationals. And that's when we with them we realized that holy cow, this is this is big in terms of all of the different angles you could look at from in terms of money and relationships.

Mickelle (06:57)
What did you discover? I mean, tell me. Tell me all the layers that you discovered. I love this.

Victoria (07:02)
So I remember when we first started, there was

There was a lot of bickering around what we would call tiny money conversations. I think the funniest thing was the price of cheese. Very common the cheese. I don't know. Like we have had a lot of couples come to us and say, we always disagree about money. And we were like, What are you disagreeing about? it's the price of cheese is so expensive and you keep buying so much cheese. So it was a lot of it it sounds comical, but it was basically the first layer of disagreements was about little tiny money disagreements.

day to day. Why did you spend so much on cheese, for example?

Mickelle (07:36)
Yeah.

So is it is it like the marriage counselling equivalent of the dishes, the cheese?

Victoria (07:41)
Yes. Exactly. Groceries. So minor scuffles about, hey, we bought too much lettuce and we had to throw it out and that costs money and you didn't realize.

And and and sort of it doesn't elevate from there, right? So that's kind of the first our first finding. Exactly. So we we first start by working through that noise and getting it out of the way. Then the layer that comes after that is more, okay, now that you are now that your relationship is not plagued with like the day-to-day little money disagreements, can you look ahead a bit more? And what what we mean by that is don't just look at what's in front of you in the next few weeks. Try to look ahead a few months.

Where do you plan to go on a big trip or a vacation? what kind of changes in your in potentially in your career are you trying to do that might impact your income? Are you thinking of buying a new a new house? Are you thinking of having a baby? All of those things which have financial implications, we would stretch their thinking. So that would be like layer two, planning ahead, thinking ahead financially. I think in their case they were which is very common, they

most couples tend to look backwards, right? It's we don't do budgeting because budgeting is it's an exercise in

sort of the things that you didn't meet. I didn't meet my budget this month. But what actually matters is the skill of looking forward. So we we shift a bit from from the past to the future where most of your financial capacity is really lies in the future. So and and that's more important. And that skill is different than what your kind of people are used to doing. So it's a good shift and that we tried it with them and that's that was kind of a good yes good

way to shift them away from the day-to-day conversations to look ahead and not backwards at the budget.

Mickelle (09:26)
Yeah, it also maybe shirks some brings back some level of shared vision instead of blame.

Victoria (09:32)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly. And what you now just mentioned would be sort of like the third layer.

So after we get the the little money conversation, like money arguments out of the way, and after we teach the skill of planning ahead, we go to financial goal alignment. And we ask couples to write down their goals in the next 12 months, in the next three years, and beyond that. And we ask them to do this exercise separately.

And what we find is that the short-term goals in the next twelve months are almost exactly the same. So they would say, for example, we know we want to take a trip to Bali next year, or we know we want to

I don't know, do this kind of extracurricular activity with our ch with our children. what we find is that there's more misalignment in the goals that are stretching beyond 12 months. So when we overlap the three-year goals, they are different. When we overlap longer term goals, they're even more different. And it always surprises couples during sessions when we do that. Which of course might surprise us because you would think of you would talk about these things.

but it's very easy for a long-term vision to get put on the on the side when you are only looking at what's in front of you today, tomorrow.

Mickelle (10:41)
Yeah. So again, being in survival mode or just dealing with what's in front of you and easy, those little fights or yeah, those those make it so you're not aligning. Th those don't make it, but like if you're only focused on that or looking backwards, your goals may not be aligned and you don't even know it.

Victoria (10:58)
Exactly.

Mickelle (10:59)
Yeah, wow, that's that's big. And it's probably much more common than we ever think.

Victoria (11:05)
It's with every single couple that we've coached. even the ones where we would say at the beginning, they are communicating well. they seem to be quite aligned. Even couples that have been married for 10 years or more, we have s we still saw that misalignment, which is I think is normal when again you're in the day-to-day. But we keep stretching the way of thinking so that eventually we get to what we call big money questions.

and that's our favorite part to also be in with our clients because it's a completely different way of thinking. It's more expansive, it's more strategic, it's really building wealth together.

and I think that's also where your expertise, Carlos, shows. So maybe you can comment on the big money questions part. Yeah, I think we also just to comment, we are not immune to this misalignment as well. The reason why we identified another s is because we went through it ourselves, right? So for us it is it's an ongoing conversation where the alignment has to continue to happen as well.

Because your life changes, right? And your goals change with your life. And and financial your financial goals are just a reflection of your life goals, right? And so that that changes as you as you get older, as as life happens, right? And then when it comes to big money questions, yeah, we we like to eventually focus on something strategic. For example, financial independence or retirement. These are the bigger questions that tend to be put aside,

And or sometimes it's buying a new home, right? So this is a very common one, like should I buy a new home? And can what can I afford? Right. And and that's also ties back to one of the initial exercises where we do basically a financial health check. How how are your numbers looking? Right. A lot of the times our clients have sort of a perception of their finances that isn't tied to reality.

in it that we see in the financial checks and their net worth, right? We tend to calculate net worth and ask how have you ever calculated your net worth? A lot of the time they say, No, I don't even know what that is.

kind of the basis, right? That this is something that we believe is is kind of a basic level of where you start. And if you've never done it, it's not that hard. and it gives you a good basis to to to then see where should I go? What could I imagine this could be? Right. And what would that mean for my life and and our our lives as as partners.

Mickelle (13:25)
Yeah. And do you find there's a lot of shame that you have to maybe I I h hear it with you saying the way you're approaching it, that it's it can feel a shameful to not know that or maybe not know the insides of your own finances.

Victoria (13:39)
Yeah, it it's a bit delicate, it and we we treat it delicately, so we we have to build trust, right? And I think we we build trust because we also speak about our own

mistakes and we've learned from our mistakes and from trying things out and what works and what hasn't worked for ourselves. And yeah, in terms of the shame, there are usually there's a partner that knows a little bit more about the finances than the other. So that could could lead to a bit of shame and inequality, if you will. People tend to play roles. There there's usually an avoider and then a chaser, right? Someone who wants the the conversation to happen, who's usually the one that approaches us and one who's maybe avoiding it. That's also very common.

There's shame there. So yes, we we deal with it and and it's perfectly normal.

Mickelle (14:25)
So when both partners come to the table, it's actually a small miracle is what you're saying.

Victoria (14:30)
my god, yes. And we have seen it like because usually couples are with us a minimum of six months. And you can imagine in that time we get to learn a lot about their dynamic. And as Carlos mentioned, the most classic dynamic that we see is that there is a a chaser, so it's the person that it's the partner that initiated the coaching.

and then there's the avoider who came to the session, sat down in the chair, is polite, but is holding back. Maybe because of shame, maybe because maybe because of a belief that they have that they're not good with money.

Maybe even sometimes it's a belief that we we don't need this. We don't have a problem. Why are we here? I'm only doing this for you. We have had all of those scenarios. And then little by little by sticking out, and they show up every session, by the way. Sometimes when a couple leaves, I look at Carlos and I'm like, I don't know if they're gonna come back. Because we we go there. We we do go to the areas that are sometimes painful because otherwise we we don't make the change.

But they show up every time and then we do see the avoider partner opening up more and more and more. And we also structure the session sessions such that we try to also balance the roles. So if there is a partner

That does more and knows more about the finances, we try to bring the other partner to be more involved as well, to have a more shared load. And we've noticed that once we do that, the more avoider partner actually starts enjoying it. They feel like they're contributing. They feel in they feel like now they play a role that is more than just sitting quietly in a chair. That those are the kind of transformations that when when we see it,

you said Mickelle it's a small miracle that they came to the session, but my God, when we see that shift, they they sometimes high five during the sessions or kiss each other or hug each other during the sessions. Then I'm then I get goosebumps and I look at Carlos and I'm like, Can you believe we do this?

Mickelle (16:26)
That's

the impact part that you're that you were craving. and I can imagine like this sounds a lot, like we've had a lot of therapists on the podcast, and it sounds very similar like to, you know, anxious avoidant tendencies and like you're you're really couching it in these terms, but it really is a form, money is kind of a form of intimacy in a way. It's how you relate.

and it can be very private. And so I can imagine there's maybe one of the couple that is like, this is not we shouldn't be sharing this with others. and what do you want to say to to those couples that maybe think that this isn't necessary or not couples, the member of the couple maybe that thinks this is private and is shame ashamed or something. What do you what would you say to them?

Victoria (17:08)
Yeah, I think

I've s I've seen it in others. We've seen it in others where once you open up a little bit, it's very there's a relief, right? Hey, there are other people here who are also trying to optimize their finances together. I have a team now, I have somebody on my team. I'm not alone.

and and not only are we trying to help you, but your partners there with you. Now it's a group of people thinking through these issues together. And that meant that like it's four people sitting at a table and and discussing one issue or four different ways of looking at something. So even just a brainstorming of ideas is is really it makes you look at it completely differently. You distance yourself a little bit from the feeling of I there's nothing I can do or the the shame or the

inadequacy, i it it really allows you to look at it differently. And I would say I would encourage that you open up even to your friends or to others about finances because it is a topic that is normally avoided and and

it's very rare and we always speak about parents, what did you observe as a child? And this is the psychology part. What did you observe and what it kind of what plays in your mind about money, right? And and if you haven't seen a different model where your parents or or other couples around you have spoken openly about money, you believe that's how it should be.

And it's not because then it leads to conflict and that conflict can be a it usually tends to be a difference in values, right? So values come into play because money is really a tool, as you always say, Victoria, of it's a it's a tool used to spend on your values, right? And and so that all of that discussion and and being open about it to me it is is freeing and it's what we see with our clients. So I would encourage people to talk about it and and to give it a chance. I think it's

It's really gonna bring a lot of peace. And maybe what I would add to that more towards the member of the couple that is eager to get on the same page, but they feel a resistance from their partner. I am also coaching individuals who are in a relationship with a money avoider, but they decided to take action anyway.

And then in these cases, I am the one doing the session one-on-one. so Carlos and I do couples together, but then individual sessions I do. And I encourage that partner to still go ahead with financial coaching, even if it is just one and not two coming to the session. And the reason I encourage that is because as we do the work, it will show up in the relationship, anyways. because when you

change something in your belief about whatever it might be, in this case it's money. You start talking about it differently, you start behaving about it differently, your partner will notice and they will ask questions.

They will be curious. what did you talk in your session with your financial coach about? and what did you say about this? And they start to get curious. For example, I now have a woman that I'm coaching on her finances, and there was a piece of of homework that we agreed with her, and that was that she was gonna bring up the topic of a joint account with her partner. Right now their finances are completely separate, and she's a little bit stressed about that. She would like to merge them a little bit.

So I said when you think it's a good moment, bring it up.

And see how your partner reacts to the idea of having a joint account. Next time when we meet to the session, I ask her, Hey, did you manage to speak to your partner about a joint account? And she said, not only did we talk about it, he remembered that I was gonna have a financial coaching session with you, Victoria. And he came to me and he said, Hey, she's gonna ask you about this, so we better talk about it now so that you have something to tell her. So it was his initiative just because there was this session in the agenda that.

he saw that she has. So that's what I mean with like spillover effects as well.

Mickelle (20:59)
Yeah. Yeah,

it makes sense. And it totally makes sense that yeah, it it it tracks so well onto marriage, things we've talked about on the podcast with other therapists, couples counselors, all this stuff. And so it really tracks, you affect each other greatly.

Victoria (21:18)
Yeah.

Mickelle (21:19)
and I can imagine going back to this four people sitting down looking at anything your your

you know, strategy, your values, you know, it really brings a sense of calm to it because you're actually able to maybe get some headway. and I think, at least in my experience, being I've been abroad for 10 years now, even if you sit down, sometimes you don't know what to do. And that is an unique kind of feeling. When you know what you want, you don't know how to get there because

Maybe you're like us, you're between two countries, or maybe you don't know all the rules. Maybe you don't have the piece of the strategy or a piece of something because you are between two countries or three countries, depending some couples. because you guys have that expertise or at least that experience, I can imagine that can be very calming.

Victoria (22:08)
Yeah, it we we went through it ourselves and so we have some first hand experience. We've also talked to many expats and most of our friends are from abroad as well, so we have their experiences. So it it is something that is common in a especially in Amsterdam. It's such an international city, right? So almost everybody has a story of moving abroad

Mickelle (22:29)
You guys have

dinner parties, don't you? You have financial dinner parties. I can see already. If you don't already you're going to be like, come talk about money with us.

Victoria (22:37)
think we we well I think sometimes we have we have dinner and finance comes up but we ne we never have specifically said it's a financial it it does come up though whenever we meet our friends for coffee or brunch or dinner, they always ask us. For example last weekend we went to Germany to visit some friends. Almost in the first like hour that we met, they were like, hey we're thinking of selling our car to buy a cheaper one and invest the rest of the money. What do you think? And we're like, okay, here we go.

Mickelle (23:05)
Yeah, nice.

And I'm kidding about that. Everyone definitely go to a party of Victorian Carlos's if you're invited. They won't make you talk about money, but I can just imagine that you guys are gonna make it cool. but what do you guys help people with? Like what can they expect when they come to you? I can see the emotional side, like you help them find their goals, you're sitting down with them. strategy, like from top to bottom, what can people expect

Because at least in my experience, again, there's like financial planners, financial coaches, financial you know, accountants, there's investment brokers, there's all sorts of people who want to help you, but usually very few of them are kind of like seeing your entire strategy all the way through.

Victoria (23:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mickelle (23:48)
tell me where you fit into that puzzle, or maybe you guys are the ones that see everything through. I don't know.

Victoria (23:53)
Yeah,

I I think you nailed it, Mickelle and

It it's exactly like that. There are different financial professionals that are specialized for something very particular. For example, a tax advisor. An even more niche, a cross-border tax advisor. You do need those guys, but you usually need them for a very specialized question. Same with a pension advisor, same with a financial advisor. I have a pot of money, what should I invest it in? Can you manage my money? A financial coach, we as financial coaches are more

overseeing the entire financial picture of a person or a couple. That's why we also ask about the goals short-term, mid-term, and long-term, because we're trying to create the strategy that best fits the individual or the couple holistically for their lives. during that process, if there is a question that pops up that's very specialized, for example,

I'm gonna be in the Netherlands for at least X amount of more years, and I'm and I keep getting hit by these box three taxes. What should I do about them? That's a very specific pain point. We would then recommend, okay, then you need to speak to a tax advisor that is really specialized in this. We can we can think about your options, but the actual question in detail will be answered by a specialized person. But we are the ones that are looking holistically devising the strategy according to the goal.

And then looking in options. Same for example with a house. we we moved here, we're renting, but now we are thinking of buying a house. Is that a good idea for us? We are not a mortgage broker or a real estate agent, but we will help answer this question in terms of options. What if you do this? What if you do that? How would that impact your cash flows, your net worth, your other goals? And then once the decision is made, then okay, now talk to a mortgage broker, talk to a real estate advisor. I think one one thing for me

That that stuck when we we've talked to people at at the expat fairs or we go and we have have a booth there sometimes. And one thing that stuck for me was that quite a few people that come to talk to us said, I've talked to an advisor, I went to a tax consultant, and it's not I haven't gotten the answer I'm looking for. Right.

Mickelle (26:03)
Yep.

Victoria (26:03)
And so sometimes we are

kind of people have tried other financial help, if you will, and they end up at a coach, a financial coach like us, because it's not holistic enough or that they don't make the connection with others. They say, Hey, I'm here and I just do taxes. I I'm not gonna look at how you feel about your money. That's just a completely different thing, right? And and they so so that doesn't get addressed. Or yeah, I'm I'm thinking about my retirement, but my partner

you know, wants to spend the money. How how do I the tax advisor or the retirement financial advisor cannot address that. So th there's there's more to it than than the specific answer that somebody needs. also I I like

Mickelle (26:44)
You g you guys are money therapists, I see this.

Victoria (26:47)
a little bit yeah, so we we we we always say it's somewhere in between, right? Between

Mickelle (26:53)
It

always is, by the way, but no one ever says it out loud.

Victoria (26:56)
Correct. There is a very fine line and again after every session, so Carlos and I we debrief after every session and we always check did we cross the line somewhere? A line between coaching and therapy, a line between coaching and advising. That's another one we cannot cross. We're always very, very careful. But we do we do get close to the line, yes.

Mickelle (27:18)
Yeah. And that's

that's something that I wish more people could, not accept, but maybe be because when you bring let's say, like most people, most international people who have successful relationships have had some sort of therapy, w whether coaching, relationship coaching, people who have great bodies usually go to the gym and have a trainer. Like it's just the way it is. but those lines between relationship stuff, money stuff, body stuff, they're very close.

And so it can feel a little bit, yeah, scandalous. and it it's just like anything else. If you want to get better at it, you don't automatically know how to train your body. Maybe some people think that you do, but you don't automatically know how to be in a relationship, especially if you've moved countries or if you're from different cultures. and so money is the same thing. And I think that that's I don't know, depending on what culture you're from, maybe not obvious, but

Even if you live in the same country your whole life, you can maybe skate by, you can maybe get advice from your family, you can maybe get advice following the footsteps of your family. But it's been my experience that I don't know anybody who's done this. And don't know anybody who's moved abroad and lived there 10 years. and so that wisdom that you normally may be able to skate by with goes right out the window. and so I would say even if you have a really good head on your shoulders financially.

when you move abroad, especially for an und undetermined amount of time, money will help guide your decisions. It doesn't have to be the guide, but it needs to be a consideration. And it's really frustrating to make decisions without that in mind and then have bad surprises later.

Victoria (28:49)
hundred percent and maybe one thing that we can also share from our own personal experience. Carlos mentioned that this year we got married.

Mickelle (28:58)
Congratulations.

Victoria (28:59)
thank you. last year when we got engaged and and we realized okay we're doing this, we also realized to your point Mickelle that we we may need some help

To figure out some things early on so that they don't become bigger issues. So we did go to a couples therapist for a few months.

Mickelle (29:19)
So smart, so

smart.

Victoria (29:21)
It it was something delicate and sensitive and we knew that maybe some of our family members are not gonna understand it and but it it didn't matter to us because we thought, how can we preach financial coaching as a service that is adding value when we ourselves are, for example, not using other services that might help us?

So we went to a couple therapists. we learned a lot about ourselves as a couple, but also about things that were so subtle that we knew there were somewhere there nagging a little bit about our relationship, but we weren't bringing it up. And it was so important to do that before we got married. That doesn't mean they went away magically in a few sessions, but we are so much more aware and so much more equipped to deal with them.

And it also helped us understand our client couples better in our own sessions. Yeah, I mean we talked about things that that maybe scarred us when we were younger around money too, right? So there were money topics that came up. and and

For me in particular, we when I was younger and I lived in the US and I was there during the great financial crisis, one thing that shaped me is that we had this second mortgage and we lost our home. That that was a it was a fear I had and and it kind of drove me to now I need to master money, right? And and of course that's a positive and but there's also kind of this fear that I needed to to address, right? And and for Victoria to truly understand it, it kind of came out in therapy. Although we had talked about it.

But not in in that degree, right? because as a child, maybe you say, maybe my parents could have thought about it, or we could have done something differently. yeah, so so these kinds of things and and are are very powerful to talk about, but difficult when especially when you're starting a relationship. And even if you're in a relationship a long time, it could be like, hey, it's it's been too long. Why would I bring it up now? Maybe it's not relevant

Mickelle (31:13)
Yeah.

Victoria (31:14)
anymore.

Mickelle (31:15)
Yeah, I can imagine that.

Victoria (31:15)
And for us also going

exactly and and going to the therapist actually was was something that we thought we may not need it now, although we we realize that we'd uncovered a lot, but what if we need it later? Then it's a barrier to say, you know, once we've done it, you're like, we can always go back, right? And and it's the same a bit with coaching, right? Our goal is that you you start with us and eventually you have the skills and then you can always come back to us when you have a strategic question. We don't want a client forever, right?

we love it that that you're with us but it it's also kind of like you just have someone you can go to when you have those when you need that help right

Mickelle (31:54)
Yeah. And I would add

to that, I I think that's so smart. I've been married twenty over twenty years now. But we were married ten years, twelve years ish. When we moved here, we had three little kids. That is another reset. I just want to be clear with everybody, even if you're from the same country and you move to a new country, that's a financial reset. Your goals change, your trajectories change, especially if you don't know how long you'll stay or if there's not a clear reason.

for you to go back. I really, really want people to know that even if you think you have everything figured out, these big moments, whether getting married, having a baby, moving abroad is one of those times where you need a a a check-in and and a reassessment of values, or else you can grow apart really fast because of the rapid nature of change. And so I think it's one of those things that I would just recommend people do right when they get

Right when they know they're moving or right when they right when they arrive. just to get on the same page because those those tiny money conversations can really get in the way of ease and put you in survival mode pretty quick, especially when you're in a new country.

Victoria (32:58)
A hundred percent. And and it's actually never about money. It's never about money. It's

Mickelle (33:04)
Yep. Yep.

Victoria (33:06)
always about something else underneath. So for example, let's take the the ridiculous co money argument we brought up earlier. W why did you buy so much cheese? It's so expensive. It's not about the price of cheese. It's not about how much you spent at the grocery store.

It's about a clash in values. And we understood that when we started to do therapy. because we had some tension between us, but we couldn't really put our finger on what is it about. And then we learn, hey, I have this value for comfort and and well-being. And you have this value for security and independence. And whenever we talk about that cheese that is so expensive that I bought, these two values are the ones that are clashing and reach trying to defend it.

But to go to that level obviously takes a lot of emotional awareness and emotional intelligence, but it also just takes about it takes talking about it to somebody who understands it and can bring it up for you. For us, that was our our marriage counselor, and we're trying to do that also for the couples that come in and have money disagreements.

Mickelle (34:08)
Yeah. It's really super it's just amazing. And I love what you guys are doing and I love the approach you're taking. skirting that that kind of where marriage therapy, lifestyle coaching, like it kind of this is the missing piece of the puzzle, I feel like. So that's really really, really great. I wanted to ask one more question. What

What advice do you have for international couples specifically? if you could give them one bit of advice either before moving or shortly after, besides calling you guys, because that's what I would say. what's one thing that you feel like people don't know when they're changing countries about their financial planning or wealth planning?

Victoria (34:43)
I think for me when I moved here, I actually didn't even know if I would stay. It's it's a very kind of a question like how long are you even gonna be here for? And I would say, yeah, one thing to to look for is have have some s form of plan, a draft plan that you can iterate on together, even if it's not

so detailed, right? It doesn't have to be. But that iteration and especially if you are not if you're not moving alone, you you have a shared vision. I think this is what Victoria also mentioned before, when

When you move abroad things change, I think this is to your point. And if you don't have that plan or a shared vision and you don't talk about it, then you're going to feel very displaced. Any plan, even if it's a un detailed one, it may not be perfect, it's gonna make you feel more comfortable and that you are at least doing some steps towards getting that stability that you're looking for.

Mm. For me that's that was that was important. And it didn't come right when I moved. It took about a year for me to realize, wait, am I gonna stay here? And is this my place? and then I sat down and sort of penciled it out. What if I'd stayed, what's what does it look like? Where would I live? And actually that's when I ended up in Amsterdam from moving from Leiden. And so so it's

You need you need some form of plan and and it and it usually doesn't happen naturally because there's so much to do when you first move abroad. There's that practical moving your stuff and where am I gonna live? You don't sit down to think about what is it that that I actually want my life to be like there. You you sort of show up and and and don't have that plan.

Mickelle (36:23)
Yeah. That that forward thinking, those are bigger questions when you live abroad, I feel like. It's at least for me and my husband, it's always like, ooh, that's a big conversation five years from now. It w it involve it potentially involves moving countries, it involves like a lot of visa planning, language acquisition that maybe we aren't ready to look at. And so

Victoria (36:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mickelle (36:46)
I think the burden of change or the burden of looking ahead,

can be greater with international couples. but also that plan can be so flexible. Like as long as you agree on it and you both know what you're working towards, that gives a sense of, like you said, security that I think can feel very, like you said, indulgent, but it's actually really necessary.

Victoria (37:07)
Definitely. And what I would add to the plan necessity to what Carlos said is also figure out who is playing what role.

Mickelle (37:17)
Hmm. And agree to it.

Victoria (37:19)
agree to it. For example, am I the one who is going to look after a household finances?

on a month-to-month basis, meaning I am in charge of the household budget, I make sure that we stick in within it, I make sure that we also have our plan for the next three months, for example, in the very short term. And are you the one who's looking more at our longer term situation? Are you the one looking after our investments, after our joint savings? Are you the one thinking more strategically for our finances? That is a very clear split of roles that if you agree in the couple,

It also makes the moving abroad a bit easier. it actually just so happens that Carlos and I right now are exploring the question of whether we should move abroad. We I have been here for 16 years, Carlos has been here for eight, nine years. and we're hitting a bit of a ceiling from a wealth-building point of view in the Netherlands.

Which of course brings up the question, should we move abroad so that we can accelerate our financial independence? And we have split roles in this conversation. my strength exactly. My

Mickelle (38:22)
Give your departments. Yeah.

Victoria (38:25)
strength is research.

I'm very good at researching, putting the information together, synthesizing it. Okay, out of all of these countries, maybe these two or whatever. Carlos's strength is really very, very deep strategic analysis that spans decades ahead. That is his strength. So then we try to combine these two and that makes then the whole planning for moving abroad just a little bit easier.

Mickelle (38:49)
Yeah. And do you also bring that to the couples that you work with? I feel no, sorry,

Victoria (38:54)
Yeah, we we we

Mickelle (38:56)
we always say that everyone's a flight risk and so everyone's always asking which country. Like everyone's moving to Italy right now or Spain. once

Victoria (39:02)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mickelle (39:03)
they hit a ceiling here, which a

Victoria (39:05)
Yeah.

Mickelle (39:05)
lot of people have tried to stay, and it just doesn't make financial sense in any way they can make it work.

and so I see a huge trend of people leaving for that reason and they're really sad about it. They don't w they wanna stay.

Victoria (39:17)
Yeah.

Mickelle (39:18)
and that that's just a huge trend I'm seeing right now,

Victoria (39:23)
Yes.

Mickelle (39:23)
with international people. And again, they've learned the language, they've bought a house, they've done the things, they just they have gone to all the specialists, they just don't know how to actually make it work. So,

Victoria (39:35)
It's

it's a luxury to live here. You pay for this luxury. And there's nothing

Mickelle (39:40)
Yeah, you do.

Victoria (39:41)
wrong with it as long as you consciously realize the price tag. And then you accept it. Or not.

Mickelle (39:45)
Yep. Yep. You

you get what you pay. No, but you you really do. And yeah, it's it's it's such a great way of putting it. Such a great way of putting it. So you're choosing to spend your money a certain way, like you said. And I that's the last thing I wanted to ask you guys about this idea of money being something you use to move towards your values, or how would you put it?

Victoria (40:06)
Yeah. I think the it should be an alignment between the two, right? Your money should be aligned to your values and you should spend it a l based on those values. Of course, when you're an individual, nobody questions that how you spend your money when you are in a couple, that's different. and you need to and that alignment

requires communication. So that's somet something we also focus on. We coaching is also about it's about asking questions and you finding your answers. There's a also a component in financial coaching which is education. So we give you the tools and things we've tested ourselves.

to for you to be able to communicate around those values or those money discussions in a better way so that y it's received better and and something comes of it, right? Not just an argument, right? Some change, a plan. And we we also encourage a lot of experimenting, right? Just try it, see see how it feels. You can always go back to your normal system. So so that's something that we I think emphasize a lot. Try it out and

And see see what works for you. For example, we now have a a client couple who came to us because they were having money disagreements and we encouraged them to experiment with financial dates. very structured business like financial dates, which at the beginning felt weird, but they agreed to do the experiment anyway. And the experiment was try it out every week for one month, for four weeks in a row.

And then we do an evaluation. and they actually emailed us the other day saying, you know what? I think it will work best for us if we do it every two weeks, but we do it in this kind of setting and we have this kind of agenda. Because now that we've tried it for four times in a row, we see that this works and this doesn't. And that's the kind of

energy and mindset that we also encourage with our clients. You're not bad with money, you didn't hit a wall, you're not gonna have these disagreements about cheese forever. Just try little changes, little tweaks and see how it goes. Yeah eventually

Mickelle (42:07)
Yeah.

Victoria (42:08)
you you hope to to change the the dynamic and the attitude towards those conversations or something very positive that you look forward to.

Right. And and that takes time. It it takes time and but eventually it feels good. And you think and we have gotten those emails that feedback like, now I look forward to it. I don't

Mickelle (42:28)
Yeah.

Victoria (42:28)
I don't have to I don't feel you know, anxious anxious to talk to you about this money topic. And that's great, that's what we look for. That's success for us.

Mickelle (42:36)
Yeah. And I think that you're you're just bringing that competency

into the couple. Like you're you're gaining that skill of talking about it and in a successful way. Because if you've had the experience of not being successful or you have the experience of not having the right support around you, like I said, aunts, uncles, moms and dads who you can call and be like, Hey, what should I do? you're you're really bringing you really do need to have that competency in order to be successful.

Victoria (43:02)
Yes.

Mickelle (43:03)
and so yeah, I love that. I love that. All right. I love everything you guys are doing. I really want to be respectful of your time. So we need to wrap up. I want people to be able to reach out to you. So what is the best place for people to find out more, to sign up, to have you guys be their marriage, no, I mean financial marriage therapy, or I know that's not what it really is, but where can they reach you guys?

Victoria (43:27)
I think the best way to reach us would be on Amsterdam Financial Coaching.com. You can see on our website what kind what kind of services we provide when it comes to financial coaching. And also you can read the stories of other couples. We have been very lucky with people who have worked with us that were so willing to speak openly about their experience doing coaching with us. So definitely encourage to to read for people to read that.

you can also find us on Instagram, also Amsterdam Financial Coaching. every day we post something that is like a little tip or a new piece of information or sometimes just a different way of thinking about love and money. so yeah, and we would be happy to to just reach more people because money does not have to stay a stressful taboo topic, not for an individual, not for a couple. We we're here to change that.

Mickelle (44:17)
Amazing guys. I cannot wait to share this with with everyone on all of our audience. Thank you for joining me today. And thank you so much for spreading the word, the impact you're making and your expertise. I love it. And I hope everyone here feels like they have more information about the need for this kind of skill in their life. Thank you to you guys for joining us. And I'd like to thank everyone who's joined us on the House Peregrine podcast. Please like and subscribe and join us next time as we talk about.

All the things you need for your international life.